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#1
09-21-2005, 01:04 PM
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So what hands do you open limp here?
Once again based on a discussion with TstoneMBD in IRC.
You are in the CO and it's folded to you. The blinds and the button are pretty loose, passive and predictable. I'd probably limp hands like JTo and A6o here, I'm not attracted to the prospect of playing them 3 way for 2 bets when probably I don't have a big pre-flop equity edge, I'd much rather limp in and see whether I like the flop and try to outplay my opponents then, especially because they're predictable and unlikely to punish me with raises when they have a better hand than me, whereas when my hands is probably good I'll pound-pound-pound. Tstone said he basically never openlimps here and prefers raising because, "raising secures positin secures momentum inflates a pot in position which increases implied odds and has a chance to fold the blinds" and some other reasons which he will probably expound upon in this thread. What do you guys think? Who else open limps here and what with? 
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#2
09-21-2005, 01:11 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
I don't open limp in the CO, but I lack imagination.
I think the possibility of winning the hand right there is the best reason to raise rather than limp. Second is that limping will usually result in 3 or 4 handed, which sucks for hands like A6o.
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#3
09-21-2005, 01:12 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
raising:
-helps to secure position -inflates a pot in position -gives you a chance to fold the blinds -secures momentum -forces passive players to check to you allowing you to dicate how many bets go into the pot -takes away equity from the SB when it would have been correct for him to complete -builds equity when the BB defends with a hand he shouldnt have -gives you a better chance of keeping the pot shorthanded with a mediocre multiway hand -keeps opposing player actions "pure" -betting is simply better than calling
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#4
09-21-2005, 01:20 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
OK let's go:
[ QUOTE ] -helps to secure position [/ QUOTE ] Yes, but a loose and passive opponent behind you isn't going to fold that many hands to a raise that they were planning on limping with. Chances are if they fold to your raise, they probably were folding anyway. Furthermore, having a loose passive behind you really isn't bad, they check through far too often and really make minimal use of position. [ QUOTE ] -inflates a pot in position [/ QUOTE ] With the kind of hands you'd limp with, you don't want to inflate the pot. You're unlikely to have a large equity edge pf and you're just making it more correct for your opponents to call post flop which is what they'll do anyway. [ QUOTE ] -gives you a chance to fold the blinds [/ QUOTE ] Yeah but it's not going to work that often. [ QUOTE ] -secures momentum -forces passive players to check to you allowing you to dicate how many bets go into the pot [/ QUOTE ] These are the same thing, and a lot of the time they're checking to you anyway. [ QUOTE ] -takes away equity from the SB when it would have been correct for him to complete [/ QUOTE ] Yeah but he plays badly after the flop so you don't really mind if he's playing, you're just trying to make a hand and have someone call you down and he's going to pay you off with crap more often than vice versa. [ QUOTE ] -builds equity when the BB defends with a hand he shouldnt have [/ QUOTE ] Your equity edge is not big though pre-flop. [ QUOTE ] -keeps opposing player actions "pure" [/ QUOTE ] They're fairly predictable opponents anyway, that's the point. [ QUOTE ] -betting is simply better than calling [/ QUOTE ] Why? OK I'm going to be out for a few hours now but I'll reply later.
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#5
09-21-2005, 01:40 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
I really hate doing that with weak aces. I could maybe see hands like JT, but I think you're better off folding something like A6 than limping. When limping, you're encouraging both blinds and the button to come along. If button comes, you lose position, and now have A-[censored] kicker in a 4way pot.
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#6
09-21-2005, 01:42 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
I never open limp in CO b/c its too likely that button can isolate you and you're OOP for the rest of the hand. If we change it to I'm on the button and both blinds are superloose and like to call the flop. I limp w/hands like A6o-A4o, KTo-K80, QTo, JTo and the like. There's a page or 2 discussion of limping when the blinds are superloose in the SH section of HEPFAP. Its a good read and probably a lil controversial on this board where the general mantra is never open limp. Sklansky makes some good points about the advantages of keeping the pot small pf b/c your folding equity is near zero pf or on the flop.
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#8
09-21-2005, 01:45 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
its been generally assumed that betting is better than calling. david sklansky has made this clear in his books that aggressive players will beat passive ones. of course there are times when calling is appropriate, but in general... betting is better than calling. id really like to see you refute that.
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#9
09-21-2005, 01:59 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
so, I have 22/45s/K3s in the sb after 3 limpers. by your logic I should raise? absurd. there are times to limp and times to raise, and throwing out a generally true statement that aggression gets the money does not give you the right to justify any play you want by throwing out the caveat 'but this play is more aggressive and we know aggression gets the money'.
just because the accepted forum logic is to never open limp in LP, doesn't mean there don't exist CO/button limps that could be +EV. speaking of sklansky, there is a section in HPFAP that talks about open limping on the button. is it so hard to imagine that we might be able to occasionally limp the CO against the right opponents in the right games? oh wait that would take thought, and questioning the 'gospel'. never mind, always raise.
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#10
09-21-2005, 02:30 PM
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Re: So what hands do you open limp here?
you took what i said entirely out of context which really aggrivates me. when i said betting is better than calling i was saying that by raising in position you become the bettor instead of the caller postflop. people do not lead into you they check-call instead. as for limping on the button, i have limped on the button and do so especially in nl.
if i implied that we should never openlimp preflop then i apologize, because that would obviously be wrong. there are certainly times when open limping is appropriate i just find them to be few and far between with these online games. this situation in particular is not when i find openlimping to be correct. just mho. ysscky if you dont like it.
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