Got berated at a 2/4 table for this...comments?

pokerrookie · #1 10-12-2005, 09:25 AM

I don't have the hand history, and reads here are unimportant, as I am looking for general advice.

The player to my left opens by completing the bring in to 2 (doorcard is an 8). I have K3K, so I raise to 4. The third player 3-bets (doorcard K, actual hand K6K). The 8 calls, I cap the betting. Both call.

I go on to win a decent pot when I make Ks and 7s. The other K makes Ks and 3s, but relentless berates me for capping with the second best hand. Sure, I was second best here, but only by a 6 kicker vs a 3 kicker. Who doesn't cap this? Again, in a general sense. With reads, everything could be debatable.

One more question. I make trip tens on 4th and bet each street. A player with a board showing 789J wakes up and raises me on 6th street. Obviously I call 6th, do I also call 7th unimproved since I have 3 of 4 T that he would need for his straight? Does my strategy change if his board shows 6789 where now a 5 is an option.

Hope the experts can weigh in on this. If I need to post the hand history, I can. Hopefully these can be answered without that. Again, general ideas against the average stud player. Thanks in advance.

BeerMoney · #2 10-12-2005, 09:52 AM

The cap on 3rd was a little crazy. What made you think you were ahead?

jon_1van · #3 10-12-2005, 09:52 AM

You don't want to cap with your KK because your Ks are probably dead. Not because your 6 is outkicked. But it isn't a huge mistake, but it is incorrect.

I have had trips a few times when my opponent requires my case card to have a straight. I always call down.

pokerrookie · #4 10-12-2005, 11:36 AM

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The cap on 3rd was a little crazy. What made you think you were ahead?

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I guess I didnt think I was ahead, but was at least "tied" and freerolling to the better hand. And this was assuming he was raising with KK, and not wired AA. Good point. I am no expert at Stud, and this serves as an example of a person (him) that should not have been educating the fish (me). Because now I won't be making that same mistake.

Now, when I get a Jack on fourth, the only hands that beat me, assuming he didnt make kings up, would be an A or Q kicker. Can I be more liberal with my betting/raising then? Figuring that if he continues to want to raise/3-bet/cap, maybe my initial read of him having KK was wrong, or he already has two pair...And I can then slow down. This is made more complicated by the third player in, but I had the feeling he was dead money in this pot. BTW, his preflop complete was with QQ. He also proceeded to make two pair (actually three). Had he tripped his queens, it would have cost me some money. Is that another reason not to cap? As the next poster said, he is playing live cards, and mine are likely dead?

BeerMoney · #5 10-12-2005, 11:39 AM

It really looks like you're in third place. You should be looking to fold, not put more $$ in.

beta1607 · #6 10-12-2005, 11:46 AM

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guess I didnt think I was ahead, but was at least "tied" and freerolling to the better hand. And this was assuming he was raising with KK, and not wired AA.

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You are not tied with anything except another K3K hand. You are a dog to any KK hand - also the 8 has a decent amount of equity against your two dead hands if he has a pair and a live kicker.

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Now, when I get a Jack on fourth, the only hands that beat me, assuming he didnt make kings up, would be an A or Q kicker. Can I be more liberal with my betting/raising then?

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The only reason I am raising here is to hope to shut out the 8, not because I think I could somehow be ahead of the other pair of kings.

Don't be so eager to build a huge pot with what is likely a dead hand.

pokerrookie · #7 10-12-2005, 12:19 PM

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You don't want to cap with your KK because your Ks are probably dead. Not because your 6 is outkicked. But it isn't a huge mistake, but it is incorrect.

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Good point. But I'm curious where one draws the line. Suppose I have AA and the other two are on the board. I have an opponent who has 22, but they are live.

Hero (AA)4 - other two aces showing
Villain (27)2 - other two deuces are in the deck

With my cards being dead, how much does this reduce my advantage? Are there any stud calculators, as there are in holdem, where I can know how much of a favorite or dog I am?

Being a holdem player, I think about 22 being a huge dog to AA (dead or alive). I understand that cards being live is very important to stud, but perhaps didnt realize just how important.

Nick_Foxx · #8 10-12-2005, 12:22 PM

With a higher pair but no chance to make trips against a lower pair and no overcard kicker, I'd say you're about a 3 to 2 favorite with the dead higher pair on 3rd street.

Mike

pokerrookie · #9 10-12-2005, 12:26 PM

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guess I didnt think I was ahead, but was at least "tied" and freerolling to the better hand. And this was assuming he was raising with KK, and not wired AA.

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You are not tied with anything except another K3K hand. You are a dog to any KK hand - also the 8 has a decent amount of equity against your two dead hands if he has a pair and a live kicker.

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Now, when I get a Jack on fourth, the only hands that beat me, assuming he didnt make kings up, would be an A or Q kicker. Can I be more liberal with my betting/raising then?

[/ QUOTE ]

The only reason I am raising here is to hope to shut out the 8, not because I think I could somehow be ahead of the other pair of kings.

Don't be so eager to build a huge pot with what is likely a dead hand.

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So, check/call 4th through 6th? Or fold even? What happens when I make my two pair? Bet then?

pokerrookie · #10 10-12-2005, 12:43 PM

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It really looks like you're in third place. You should be looking to fold, not put more $$ in.

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Whoa! Hold on here. Where should I fold here? Keep in mind this is 2/4 with fish like me playing. 8 completed, am I right to raise with my KK? Assume no aces are on board, so no obvious higher pair possibilities. Once I raise, I get reraised by the other K. Aren't I right to assume he is raising with KK, as opposed to AA. I mean, the K is showing, after all. If he has another pocket pair that he is raising with besides KK, it could conceivably be any 22-QQ or AA. If we narrow the range to what I would consider reasonable, I would put him on AA, QQ, or JJ. I am ahead of 2 out of 3, and then "virtually" tied with his KK. I can't fold to just one bet when its 3 back to me. Do I just call here, then? And do I check/call all the way to the end. What cards could come for him that would cause me to fold this hand. If he makes another pair, and I havent, sure I'd fold. If an A, Q, or J comes, and he continues to show aggression which suggests he has tripped up, or made two high pair, sure I let it go, no problem. But if his board continues to be all rags, as does the other guys, I have to see the end. Or am I way off the mark here?