KQo - TP on monotone flop facing turn action

pokernicus · #1 12-05-2005, 02:39 PM

There aren't too many cases where I'd call a bet and fold to a raise on the same street, but this seemed like a reasonable situation to do so. Comments on all streets appreciated!

No reads on individual players. Game is reasonably tight with most pots being heads-up or three way.

2/4 Hold'em (10 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is UTG+1 with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, Hero calls, 3 folds, MP3 calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets, MP3 calls, CO folds, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (4 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, Hero calls, MP3 raises, SB calls, Hero??

shark6 · #2 12-05-2005, 02:43 PM

Raise PF.

Bet flop. Reconsider if you get pressure from someone.

#3 12-05-2005, 02:45 PM

raise preflop. I think this is a classic case of reverse implied odds. Even if you're ahead, there are several cards that will cost you the pot. The fact that MP3 wakes up after a bet and a call means that he's either got the flush, the naked A or two pair of some sort. A set would have most certainly raised the flop. He's probalby got the flush, and I think you can go ahead and fold here.

Buckmulligan · #4 12-05-2005, 02:48 PM

I think folding the turn is pretty bad. Villains could easily be waiting on the turn card to exploit equity with a hand like KJ or KT.

Call the raise, bet or call a no diamond river.

Nick C · #5 12-05-2005, 02:49 PM

I would have raised SB's turn donkbet.

Nick C · #6 12-05-2005, 02:57 PM

It does kind of look like MP3 has a flush and is through slowplaying now.

Still, he could have a worse king that he's raising with now that a diamond didn't fall on the turn, because he thinks he has SB beat and he wants to charge your naked A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].

It's possible SB has you beat (I don't know why he's waking up on the 5), but I'm more worried about MP3. And I can understand folding, but I think I would call and see what fell on the river and how the action went.

#7 12-05-2005, 05:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I would have raised SB's turn donkbet.

[/ QUOTE ]

pokernicus · #8 12-06-2005, 12:57 AM

In the actual hand, I folded to the turn raise. The river was a 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. SB had two small diamonds for a flush made on the flop. MP3 had A2 with the A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] -- making trips on the river, but still having a second best hand.

Here was my reasoning. SB had checked the flop and lead the turn. This usually is a sign of a strong hand (especially given the monotone board. With five players to the flop, I figured there was a good chance someone made a flush on the flop.

So, SB represents a strong hand and MP3's donk-raise represented being able to beat a strong hand. I'm drawing dead to a flush figured that I was likely behind to at least one of these guys.

A few people recommended raising pre-flop. I usually draw the line for raising calling between KQs/KQo. In this case, I was in early position, so thought limping in would be reasonable. In retrospect, in this hand, a raise would probably have won me the pot (as SB might have folded his two small diamonds!)

Still, is limping in pre-flop with KQo in early position a really bad idea? Should I usually be raising in this situation?

silkyslim · #9 12-06-2005, 01:17 AM

i WILL DEFINATELY raise the turn and fold to a 3 bet. HE donkbets on a non [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] turn. that could mean a baby flush some of the time but i think its a weak made hand even more of the time.

#10 12-06-2005, 01:38 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Still, is limping in pre-flop with KQo in early position a really bad idea? Should I usually be raising in this situation?

[/ QUOTE ]

I've found raising KQo really makes it easier to play. Not to surprising, as it's a top pair hand, and not very good multiway. KQs plays fine multiway, and it's almost easier to limp in and invite others along for the ride. Still, I usually raise both of 'em. Depends a bit on the table, but not all that much.

In fact, I'm going to really stress this point -- I love raising KQo from EP. Much more than AJo, which is the breaking point for most people on raise/call/fold and often gets discussed in the same breath. KQo is much easier to play from the flop on than AJ.