Help for when a pot gets BIG (Long winded hand)

illguitar · #1 07-22-2005, 02:30 PM

Pacific Poker 2-4 Full Ring game (no reads except that everyone is weak, of course)

Hero is on the button w/ A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

UTG limps, UTG +1 limps, 1 fold, MP1 limps, MP2 limps, MP3 limps, CO limps, Hero calls (?), sb raises, bb calls, all call, hero 3 Bets (?), sb calls, all call.

Flop: (9 players to the flop for 27 small bets)
3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 9 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 10 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

check, check, check, MP1 bets, fold , fold , CO calls, Hero raises, sb coldcalls, folded to MP1 who calls, CO calls.

Turn: (4 players for 17.5 Big bets)
4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to hero who checks

River: (4 players for 17.5 bb)
J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

sb bets, MP1 raises, CO and Hero fold, sb calls and mucks. MP1 had K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Here are my questions...

1) I caught a lot of flack at the table for limp reraising on the button with that many people in. Especially since it was obvious on the end that I didnt have a premium pair.
Do you see why I did this? I did it because my hand was better than 7-8 of the other players I was pretty sure, plus I was suited and had position. I didnt raise the first time around because I had so many opponents (this sounds wrong right now, but at the time its what I thought), however, I knew that one of two things would happen after my 3 bet...First, the small blind could just call and give us a large pot with many players in which I have a lot of equity. Second, He could reraise and limit the field somewhat. Both of these were fine options for me.

So was I right? Should I have raised the first time? Should I have just smooth called the sb raise? Let me know, I just got to thinking about it afterwards...

Next, What about the flop reraise? I obviously didnt think I had the best hand, but I felt like I could shut out all others with just overcards. I was trying to give myself the best chance to win the pot. I know now that the sb obviously had a pair, but he couldve had AK, too. I like the play because it told me where I stood and improved my chances of winning. Is this right or wrong?

I checked the turn without help. Who bets here? I think its chip spewing, but Im not sure. Im obviously done on the end even when my jack comes.

Flame away...

brettbrettr · #2 07-22-2005, 02:32 PM

pre-flop is a raise the first time around.

The flop is a call.

chief444 · #3 07-22-2005, 02:40 PM

The preflop 3-bet is fine with this many opponents and AJs. You need to raise the first time though.

I usually just call the flop because in this pot no one is folding any piece or overcards. Turn check seems fine.

River depends a lot on MP1 since you're getting like 10:1 with TPTK. I'd probably call because QJ/KJ are possibilities. But with SB both hanging around and leading the river the fold probably isn't bad since you're likely behind both of them and combined you may not be good 10% of the time and SB can still 3-bet.

Emperor · #4 07-22-2005, 02:48 PM

Preflop raise.

I like the flop raise cuz it gets him a free turn card. At 2/4 its very unlikely he's going to get 3bet

meep_42 · #5 07-22-2005, 03:07 PM

I posted a hand a few days ago where I raised this the first time. AJs is a good hand from the blinds with a lot of limpers.

-d

Stellastarr · #6 07-22-2005, 03:10 PM

Definitely raise preflop the first time when on the button with AJs.

brettbrettr · #7 07-22-2005, 03:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I posted a hand a few days ago where I raised this the first time. AJs is a good hand from the blinds with a lot of limpers.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

My man is on the button.

meep_42 · #8 07-22-2005, 03:21 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I posted a hand a few days ago where I raised this the first time. AJs is a good hand from the blinds with a lot of limpers.

-d

[/ QUOTE ]

My man is on the button.

[/ QUOTE ]

Even more reason to raise it, then.

-d

illguitar · #9 07-22-2005, 04:01 PM

okay...so are we all (I am), in agreement that I missed a raise preflop? I remember thinking...oh no, AJ. I hate that hand multiway. BUT being suited, on the button, and perceiving myself as someone who plays better than everyone else at the table it IS a raise.

What about the 3 Bet...people acted like it was the worst play they have ever seen. I think they were mad that they limped, relimped then got popped again. I personally like this raise for the reasons stated in the above post and the flop raise.

The 3 Bet I was thinking in terms of my pot equity since I had a much better hand than most of my opponents. Is this correct thinking or is it wrong? Im trying to understand the theory behind it more clearly.

Also, Im raising the flop based on Malmansky's advice in HPFAP. To increase my chances of winning the pot when it becomes very large. It has been awhile since I read this book, is this a gross misinterpretation? Somebody please fill me in. I love criticism because Im here to learn not defend myself. Thanks!

-Daver

callydrias · #10 07-22-2005, 05:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The 3 Bet I was thinking in terms of my pot equity since I had a much better hand than most of my opponents. Is this correct thinking or is it wrong? Im trying to understand the theory behind it more clearly.

[/ QUOTE ]

You want to raise because you have position and a good multihanded holding. You probably have decent equity, but with this many limpers, I think your hand value comes from the suitedness as much as high card strength. Whatever the reasons you used to 3-bet though should have been applied the first time around when you limped - i.e. if you thought your equity was worth a 3-bet, it was also worth a raise.