65 suited UTG

[golferbrent]

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I used to play those kind of hands from early position and I would justify it in all kinds of ways (loose game, if I don't really hit the flop I'll fold, my opponents suck, etc..). A good friend of mine who has made a living playing poker at the middle limits for over 15 years listened patiently while I explained to him why I play those hands, and how loose the game always is and so on. When I was finished he looked me right in the eyes and said "that's a leak bro, and thats all I'm going to say about it." I was too stupid to listen at first, and a year later I can tell you without a shred of doubt in my mind: that is a leak in your game.

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What a great post... I think you hit the nail on the head. It is easy to start playing hands like this when everyone else is playing crazy... it can cause a great deal of detioration in your game and also increase your std. dev. in your results.

I find that when I play a lot this kind of leak seeps into my game as well and it is a hard thing to break. Usually it takes about 3 months to show up and then about 2-3 weeks to cleanly break the bad habits.

I agree with the OP that when you know it is going to be a volume pot you need to open up. However, you need to open up in better position... I never open up in EP b/c too many things can go wrong after you limp. In LP you can certainly open up... but it is a definite leak in EP.

[sully4321]

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This isn't about the hand, it's about the fact that I called and everyone told me how stupid I was for limping UTG with 65s, much less calling 3bets cold, as I was stacking my chips. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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No offense, but they were right. Glad you got lucky though.

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i have no problem with playing a hand like this with so many raises and re-raises. chances are, he's facing at least one, maybe two pocket pairs, and the rest have two broadway cards, possibly suited. all of these players will be raising or re-raising on all streets giving the OP pot odds to call if he flops an OESD or FD. and when he hits, like he did, it's $$$.

i would argue that limping UTG with this hand gave away too much information. a stronger player would realize what he was doing and probably put him on a hand close to what he had. if i choose to play this, i raise UTG to disguise the strength, and get away if the flop doesn't help me.

nh

[illguitar]

The key word here for me is loose aggressive .

If it is loose passive I make this original call UTG considering the high potential for many players w/o a raise. This makes this hand a marginal call by most standards. I make the call in this game, BUT I am a loose player compared to many posters with my hands played hovering around 23%. If someone with a 23% hands played rate thinks its loose, its pretty loose.

In an aggressive game, where it stands to be raised and or reraised 1 or more times, this becomes an EASY fold. The implied odds are reduced so greatly that the whole point of playing the hand is killed. Not to mention that these hands play much more effectively in big bet games. Limit holdem doesnt allow for players to win entire stacks on one great hit. I blame TV for this, I fall into this trap myself.

Note: I didnt even mention the call of the 3 bet, which is giving odds of 5-1 on the call. You are out of position, and probably stand to win less than 10% of the time. If this pot is HUGE and you take it down, there may be 25-30 BB in it. This means that your implied odds could be up to 7-1 to 10-1. I dont think that this warrants a call considering this is the best case scenario and you are so dominated you are drawing VERY thin.

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i have no problem with playing a hand like this with so many raises and re-raises. chances are, he's facing at least one, maybe two pocket pairs, and the rest have two broadway cards, possibly suited. all of these players will be raising or re-raising on all streets giving the OP pot odds to call if he flops an OESD or FD. and when he hits, like he did, it's $$$.

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In large pots, it's important to be drawing to the nuts. There are too many ways to make the hand you were looking for and still lose the pot (and lose more bets because you hit, also).

[man]

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i have no problem with playing a hand like this with so many raises and re-raises. chances are, he's facing at least one, maybe two pocket pairs, and the rest have two broadway cards, possibly suited. all of these players will be raising or re-raising on all streets giving the OP pot odds to call if he flops an OESD or FD. and when he hits, like he did, it's $$$.

i would argue that limping UTG with this hand gave away too much information. a stronger player would realize what he was doing and probably put him on a hand close to what he had. if i choose to play this, i raise UTG to disguise the strength, and get away if the flop doesn't help me.

nh

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wtf? how could a strong player put an UTG limper on 65s? you could just as easily have AJs, 88, JTs, etc.. and raising the pot every time from UTG with 65s makes you even easier to read.. it's a good mix-it-up play, not something to get into a habit with.

as for OP... I think I counted 5 other players so you're getting 7:1 ( (5*4 + 1) : 3 ) on this call (maybe less ifyou think others will fold when it's 2 back to them). preflop you're not even giving up that much. I would love to be in this pot with this hand.. more if in NL, but here I like it as well.

[oreogod]

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where's that 'useless thread' guy when you need him?

well, the original post anyways.

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You didn't like my play either I take it.....

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Well its the kind of play Id be looking for while scouting for a good table thats for sure.

Believe it or not, someone did this to me the other day, I had AA he had some suited whatever hand...he makes his flush on the turn, but a 4th flush card hits the river and I make a higher flush in a HUGE pot. Man, that was awesome.

So, Im pushing for more play like this.

[TaintedRogue]

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whats the point?

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I was hoping to start an intelligent debate on the subject.
If you load 6 hands into twodimes.net, one being AKs & the other 65s of different suits, against 2 other drawing hands and 2 pocket pairs, 65s does not trail AKs by very much in pot equity. In fact, based on the known suits in the other player's hands, 65s sometimes has 5% more pot equity than AKs

[oreogod]

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whats the point?

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I was hoping to start an intelligent debate on the subject.
If you load 6 hands into twodimes.net, one being AKs & the other 65s of different suits, against 2 other drawing hands and 2 pocket pairs, 65s does not trail AKs by very much in pot equity. In fact, based on the known suits in the other player's hands, 65s sometimes has 5% more pot equity than AKs

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Two things. Post the complete hand if you want conversation, the way your original post came off was kind of pointless. Like a bad beat, but reversed.

Second, its pretty safe to assume you are behind much more than AKs here. You are at least trailing a higher pair or two.

[TaintedRogue]

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Believe it or not, someone did this to me the other day, I had AA he had some suited whatever hand...he makes his flush on the turn, but a 4th flush card hits the river and I make a higher flush in a HUGE pot. Man, that was awesome.

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The other four + times, you don't hit the 4th suited card, and I take an awesome pot. Man, I love it when AA calls it all the way down cause they can't give up their pocket AA when they know they are beat.

So, Im pushing for more play like this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[oreogod]

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Believe it or not, someone did this to me the other day, I had AA he had some suited whatever hand...he makes his flush on the turn, but a 4th flush card hits the river and I make a higher flush in a HUGE pot. Man, that was awesome.

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The other four + times, you don't hit the 4th suited card, and I take an awesome pot. Man, I love it when AA calls it all the way down cause they can't give up their pocket AA when they know they are beat.

So, Im pushing for more play like this [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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I'll cap my AA to your 65s anyday.