2 late tourney hands for criticism

[Lottery Larry]

Four tables in a home NL freezeout tournament

Starting stacks were around T1300, 20 minute rounds. Game has become somewhat passive, with few calls of all-ins. I have two key hands that I'd like opinions on (I'll add results and exact hand details later on).


I) I'm moved to a new table, play a circuit or two. I haven't had to show much, haven't done a whole lot except steal from this very large stack to my right. Blinds are $T250/500 at this point. We are one hand away from forming the final table of 10, with 6 places paid (#6 got back entry fee)- the 11th person has busted out already, we're still playing this new hand.

I raise UTG with Ax suited in our 6-handed table to $1200 (about 30% of my stack)- I need to accumulate some chips.
The button, who has played generally tight and generally showed winners at the end, but whom I suspected of stealing some pots earlier in the evening, reraises another 1500 all-in, knocking out everyone else.

If I call, I'm crippled. If I fold, I have enough for a few circuits but I have to start aggressively going after chips pretty quickly (300/600 when the final table is formed)

a) Call and gamble for chips, or fold here? How low would card X have to be before you fold a suited Ace hand here, against this player (whose play I didn't really know very well)?


II) Final table, down to 8 players. I'm down to 1425 in late position with 350/700 blinds. UTG limps, folded to me, with Qy suited. In 4 hands I'll hit the blinds and pretty much have no chance of making the money, much less anything else. There are decent sized stacks behind me (button, 2 blinds) and the UTG limper had a decent-sized stack.

a) Move all-in here? I'd gotten lucky the previous hand when my T7, flopped pair of 7s', caught trips on the river to keep me in the game against a flopped overpair. I'm sure at least one person, if not more than the UTG limper, will be calling if I move in.

b) Does card Y matter in this hand?

c) Is it better to fold here and wait to move all-in first with almost any hand?

Thanks
LL

[aceragclubs]

Hand 1: You know you are moving to the final table after this hand is over, but you chose to raise in EP with Ax suited.....probably a little over-agressive. Since you only had about 8 times the big blind left, you should almost be in push or fold mode. I'd prefer to take a full orbit or two at the 10-man final table than to risk all of my chips with Ax suited heads up. I would put an unknown player on a hand that would most likely dominate Ax if they came over the top of your raise all-in.
Hand 2: I think the second card does matter, at least with the limper. He will most likely never fold to your meager all in raise, so you'd like to have some high card value. The fact that the cards are suited matters less heads-up, as flushes are pretty rare. I'd probably push if the other card was a 9 or higher, giving your hand decent high card value, along with straight and flush possibilities. Other wise, I'd looks for Ax or Kx in the next few hands, push, and make someone call you before anyone else limps. I'm curious to see what others have to say about this one though.

Aceragclubs

[mntbikr15]

WTF U suck at poker nooberzz!!!1!11

lol ok in all seriousness here goes.

Hand 1- Dont like it, as was mentioned ur about to move to a full table and can afford to take a few rotations and wait for a better shot. Just curious but what were the avg stacks at this time(from ur description of BB most were in a similar position?). I fold this here almost every time, unless the table had been playing SUPER tight. Even then with ~7-8 BB ur pretty much in push or fold mode. Eh I vote fold. Given ur line I prob call here. Seldom am I raising 30 percent of my stack and with the intention of folding to a raise. Makes things interesting that u have him covered, but I now that uve put urself in this situation by raising Axs UTG with ur chips [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I call.

Hand 2, while there is something to be said for the added chips in the pot due to the UTG limp I fold this every time. Qxs is not a strong hand, u have 4 hands to go, and even if u get trash strange things have happened when u end up all in on ur blind. Not even close in my mind. By "Y" card im assuming u mean less then ten right? QTs or better Ill play here sometimes.

-Evan

PS- why were u playing 107 in the first place, it better have been soooted....

PPS- was this the game that chad was running?

[Colt45]

Nice post there Evan.. just a bit wild [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]
Yea i agree with him here.. playin Ax in that situation is bad i would probably fold here.. but if u had something like AT, AJ, AQ, AK, its not bad to go in with.

Qy is not a great hand to push with. I would probably just wait for a better hand and push. Ex. Ax, pp, K xhigh. Or when your big blind I would just go all in blind, cuz u never know what would happen.

-Young

[ZootMurph]

I disagree with the other posters about hand 1. Six handed, sorta like the bubble, as everyone knows you are going to the final table now. I think a blind steal with Axs UTG is OK to play here... but only if the table has been pretty tight. Otherwise, I'd fold and wait for a better opportunity. Anyway, you have to call 1500 and the pot is 4650. You are just over a 2:1 dog against KK - 66, a coin toss against pocket 55 - 22. Also, about 2.2:1 against AK or AQ with none of your suit. The only hand that you won't have the odds to call against is AA. So, what do you think the chances are he has AA? I'd say your odds are about 2:1 against the range of hands he could be playing, and you are getting 3:1 from the pot. I'd say you have to call here.

Hand 2: To me this all depends on the tightness of the table. The tighter the table seems to be, the better the chance I push here. If the big stacks behind you are playing sherriff, I'd probably wait it out. The absolute key, though, is when you are shortstacked you have to pick a hand you feel good about and push... letting Lady Luck make her decision. And, the kicker IS important, generally. In this case, a call is going to mean trouble no matter what... you are really hoping for a lucky board for your hand, or a blind steal, so the kicker is meaningless since a call will mean you probably need luck no matter what.

[schwza]

what were the blinds in the Ax hand? it's pretty rare that you want to be raising 30% of your stack with a hand that can't stand a reraise. i'm guessing you had 4000 and the blinds were 200/400. in that case, i'd be inclined to push A8s and muck smaller hands.

once the other guy reraises you for 1500 more, you absolutely have to call. you're calling 1500 to win ~6000. folding would be wrong against any hand but AA.

hand 2: i'd push with QJ/QT and maybe Q9 here. you have no fold equity at all with such a short stack, so you're just looking for a big hand. you'll have to be all-in on your BB regardless of your cards, and this is a moderately favorable spot for you. best case, you'll get HU with utg getting ~2:1 on your money.

[JARID]

Larry,

Hand #1: I'm not keen on the utg raise with Ax suited. As you can see you are somewhat pot committed with a hand you would prefer that not be the case with.
You are also about to move to the final table where you will get some blind relief. Seems like a bad spot to torch 1/3 of the stack.

Answer to your question. I don't think this is a steal. You raise UTG and he is putting his tourney on the line for no reason. I think I fold any x<J. This gives you a good shot at being a coin flip, if its QQ-KK, you still have odds to draw to your A and of course you're sooted.
I could be wrong about this though because it looks like you're getting a big price to call. I'd like to hear from others.

Hand #2:

The Y definately matters. Moving with Q high here is not ideal, but neither is your chip situation. I would want as many ways to win the hand as possible. Straight, Flush, pair w/either card (especially the Y being highter than medium pairs).

Hope this helps-
-Jarid

[Lottery Larry]

>I) I raise UTG with Ax suited in our 6-handed table to $1200 (about 30%
>of my stack), thinking that I might steal the blinds from up front because
>people won't be eager to play this hand (plus I have enough hand to
>possibly escape if called) and I need to accumulate some chips.
> The button, who has played generally tight and generally showed
>winners at the end, but whom I suspected of stealing some pots earlier in
>the evening, reraises another 1500 all-in, knocking out everyone else.
>
> If I call, I'm crippled. If I fold, I have enough for a few circuits
>but I have to start aggressively going after chips pretty quickly (300/600
>when the final table is formed)
>
> a) Call and gamble for chips, or fold here? How low would card X
>have to be before you fold a suited Ace hand here, against this player
>(whose play I didn't really know very well)?

I raised with A9s. The other player went all-in with a pair of 3's. I folded after agonizing about the money in the pot for a long while, figuring that I had to be pot-committed if I made the raise in the first place (since I had it covered). The player had seen me fold to raises before, so I couldn't decide what the strength of the hand was.

The rabbit hunt showed that a 9 would have flopped, just to rub it in my face. I'm pretty sure I made a somewhat poor decision by raising UTG, but I think (results aside) that it was a bad decision to fold once I did raise- I was going to need the chips to have any chance of getting anywhere, I think.
>
>II) Final table, down to 8 players. I'm down to 1425 in late position
>with 350/700 blinds. UTG limps, folded to me, with Qy suited. In 4 hands
>I'll hit the blinds and pretty much have no chance of making the money,
>much less anything else. There are decent sized stacks behind me (button,
>2 blinds) and the UTG limper had a decent-sized stack.
>
> a) Move all-in here? I'd gotten lucky the previous hand when my T7,
>flopped pair of 7s', caught trips on the river to keep me in the game
>against a flopped overpair. I'm sure at least one person, if not more
>than the UTG limper, will be calling if I move in.

I moved in here, eventually a raising war erupts behind me, with the button, small blind and big blind pushing in their chips (UTG called a few flop raises and eventually bailed out). The button had JJ, but his full house was beaten by KK bigger full house (turn K, river J if I remember correctly).

If I would have folded, I might have snuck into 6th place. I would have had to get lucky, since only one other player was knocked out during the raising war.

The WORST part of the A9 hand that I tortured myself with afterwards (in my results-oriented agony):

If I call, I win and I have enough chips that I DON'T play the T7 or the Q7... and I might have made the money, assuming the KK/JJ war goes down without change, since we'd only have 9 players at the final table.

If I don't raise preflop in the first place, but wait for the final table, I again have enough chips that I don't play the T7 and Q7... and maybe make the money?

My opponent on the A9 hand took my wimpy fold money and ended up winning the tournament

Thanks to all for the comments

[Lottery Larry]

Where the HELL did you learn to type?!? I think you're buzzing on Red Bulls again.

No, this wasn't a tournament you were aware of. Average stacks would be 5K plus, so my opponent was understacked and I was a little under average. I knew the blinds would be going up to 300/600 at the final table, so I only had 5 orbits worth of chips. Maybe I shouldn't have pulled the trigger on the A9 in the first place.

[lady4luck]

hand 1. since you came in raising, i beleive you must call here. the x even if suited can matter alot, in a kicker situation.

hand 2. i'd fold here 4 sure. you never know what cards you may get next hand. pick a spot and call all-in.