A preflop question. Party 15/30.

[JAA]

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<font color="red"> The average Party game that I play in is overly loose, making folding incorrect. </font>

It could very well be that my judgement is off, but it seems to me that 3-betting 99 here in the average Party 30 game will net you on average exactly 1, maybe 2 callers (or 4-bettors).

This to me, is the worst result for 99. I either want to play the hand heads-up with position or I want as many players as possible for set equity.

I guess what I'm saying is that IF UTG does happen to have you beat, you NEED callers with 99, no? And if he has overcards, well then you're a small favorite. However, if even 1 other player comes along, then 99's chance of holding up is reduced considerably.

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I agree with you more in terms of the Party $30 game. But I play primarily $15-$30 and was thinking in terms of the average $15 game.

- Jags

[tpir90036]

Wow, the responses in this thread are making me nervous about my game. Maybe I have spent too much time playing online or something. But unless I have stats on the opener and know he is tight I don't think I have ever folded 99 in this spot ever.

[B Dids]

This reminds me of one of astroglide's posts. It's one of my favorites. It was regarding AQo in a similar spot IIRC.

"I raise unless I have a reason not to".

While I don't play the 15, the table conditions described make raising seem awfully correct. Anybody calling or capping behind us has their hand pretty well defined and I think we'll be able to judge where we're at on the flop a lot.

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I disagree with everyone so far. I would rank the options as 1.) Reraise, 2.) Call, 3.) Fold, with calling just ahead of folding.

I however do agree that in EV terms this decision is probably failry close.

- Jags


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I agree.
-James

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Me too. And I don't really think it's all that close.

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I knew that my thoughts on this issue wouldnt be supported by twoplustwo, because the standard 2p2 line for 99 against a UTG raise is to 3bet.

I was playing 15/30 and this situation arose. I actually 3bet the 99 here because that is the default, but after the hand I reconsidered and felt that I should have folded.

Now I probably don't have as much experience as you guys do at 15/30, I've only logged 12k hands there, but I give credit to an unknown raiser. I have a few million hands in my databases, so an unknown raiser is usually a fish and fish usually limp more than they raise. The party 15/30 games are very passive games imo and I would estimate that an unknown UTG raiser doesnt open with 77, and may or may not with 88. He is going to be holding a premium hand and I'm either facing overcards or a higher pair. This also doesn't take into account that someone behind me could easily have a larger pair or coldcall/cap with an Ax combination putting me in a folding proposition postflop.

I don't see value in this situation against an unknown raiser who I have no idea how he plays other than that I have position in which I have no idea how to utilize against an unknown.

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This is a very easy fold for me in this situation so I agree with your updated line. I would 3bet if I thought the utg raiser was a loose raiser. If he is an unknown I would fold unless I felt I would get a lot of backend callers, then I would call. And of course people here are gonna think youre weak tight with this line, but Ive accepted this image. Whats funny to me is that every time I play live with my best friend(who's a solid player), he says I'm too aggressive, but on this site everyone thinks I'm weak tight. So I say embrace the weaktight image and fold your nines.

[DeeJ]

I think it's close, which is why we're disagreeing [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

I put the average unknown player at Party 15/30 raising UTG on a good hand. Sure, there are uber laggy fish and rocky ciferish rocks raising ATo (whoops) UTG but for the average player you have to put them on a higher pair (save perhaps 88?) or two overcards. Therefore, you're behind, to an average UTGer most of the time. But there's plenty of people yet to act, so I think you can call here and play a favourable flop.

So I think call, fold, raise in that order.

ok ok at the table I probably just raise [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[mplspoker]

How does calling threebets cold "define" there hand????

Even if your "read" on the unknown 15/30 player is correct, AK-AT is far more likely than TT-AA, and you have position, and you play much better than he does postflop.

Add to that the possibility that UTG is raising even lighter than that and I think the re-raise is good.

[B Dids]

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How does calling threebets cold "define" there hand????

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Three of the players stats would tell you that they're basically unlikely to call 3 cold with anything, and probably aren't capping with JJ-AA, and AK. If the bad player calls, that's a little trickier, but the tight players doing so, you can narrow their range down pretty easily.