What is your line?

[Philuva]

I open raise with 99 3 seats off the button in a 10 handed game. A weak player in the SB calls and solid player in the BB makes it 3 bets. I would guess he does this with JJ or better, AKs, AKo, and maybe AQs. I call and SB calls.

Flop is 743 with two diamonds. SB checks. BB bets.

What is your play and your line for the rest of the hand.

I am torn between:
1. calling down
2.raising to knock out SB, and folding the turn if BB 3 bets the flop and bets out on the turn and I don't improve.

What is your line with no SB involved?
What is your line with the SB involved?

[DcifrThs]

[ QUOTE ]
2.raising to knock out SB, and folding the turn if BB 3 bets the flop and bets out on the turn and I don't improve.

[/ QUOTE ]

if SB calls two cold i'd put him temporarily on a flush draw. then if bb 3 bets im in some deep cacadookie...call and fold unimproved...

im assuming you dont have the 9d...if you did i'd call if i picked up a flush draw and fold the river unimproved...

the only complication the sb calling 2 cold and bb 3betting has is that when it comes to matters of the cacadookie, im sometimes prematurely presumptuous in assuming im in it in these situations, when it may be the case the BB is value raising his overs/flushdraw vs. 2 opponents...

-Barron

[Steve Giufre]

Im way in favor of raising this flop. That way you can both protect your hand a little and find out where you are at real quick. If the BB three bets you I think you can call and safely fold to a turn bet. It's just real unlikely this kind of player is gonna try push AK AQ through you in that spot. If the pot were heads up, I'd say you should probably call down, but he should respect your flop raise a little more with the presence of the SB.

If the SB calls two cold, I would fire again at any good card on the turn, and then decide what to do on the river. I do think its close between calling down and folding the turn if you are three bet, but you are correct about his preflop three betting standards, I think you can safely fold if played back at.

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
I open raise with 99 3 seats off the button in a 10 handed game. A weak player in the SB calls and solid player in the BB makes it 3 bets. I would guess he does this with JJ or better, AKs, AKo, and maybe AQs. I call and SB calls.

Flop is 743 with two diamonds. SB checks. BB bets.

What is your play and your line for the rest of the hand.

I am torn between:
1. calling down
2.raising to knock out SB, and folding the turn if BB 3 bets the flop and bets out on the turn and I don't improve.

What is your line with no SB involved?
What is your line with the SB involved?

[/ QUOTE ]

From what I've calculated WHEN you RAISE the flop (I would rarely ever call here, unless I knew BB played too many hands and overplayed them then I may wait until the turn to raise a flush drawn board assuming it doesn't get there on the turn. I'm not sure why you are torn...you can't afford to give overcards a cheap look and you'd much rather have this HU now) there is 12SB in the pot (with your two).

If SB calls there is 14SB.
If SB folds there is still 12SB.

If BB 3bets and SB is in, you are getting 16:1 on your call
If BB 3bets and SB is not in, you are getting 14:1 on your call.

I see alot of call and fold to a turn bet unimproved advice, not just in this thread but others that are similar. The question is, what are you looking to improve to with those odds?

Furthermore, is the turn bet really giving you any more info than the flop 3-bet by BB? Is the BB really going to 3-bet and then check the turn?

Granted if you had the 9d, you *could* improve to a flush draw, but that might not even be good. If SB calls, you are that much more concerned now about how good your flush draw is if it even gets there on the turn.

So I think if the SB FOLDS and the BB 3-bets you are often looking to improve to your flush. If the BB 3-bet, he almost surely will lead any turn and if you missed your diamond draw, then I think you have a clear fold...unless the BB is known to be uber aggressive and pop hands like AK/AQs all the way to the river.

Now, if the SB calls your raise...I think your flush draw is devalued quite a bit or you could be behind to a better SB hand (unless SB is a complete clown that would call any gutshot, overcards, whatever...your description is weak as in a loose and overboard calling station, or weak as in weak-tight signifying calling 2 cold on this flop could be very concerning? I think that is a big determining factor in this hand)

In a nutshell, I think if SB calls...and you are nearly certain BB wouldn't 3-bet without a hand better than 99 there is little sense in calling on the flop looking for improvement. If SB folds and BB 3-bets, I think you have a call to improve to the flush (assuming you have the 9d, otherwise I think you can fold right here), and effectively getting 8.5:1 on a turn call to make your flush on the river...as well as having your two 9 outs. If you are HU with BB on the turn and miss the flush, I think you have a fold...again assuming BB will not 3-bet this flop and/or lead the turn without an overpair to your 9s.

[Philuva]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure why you are torn...you can't afford to give overcards a cheap look and you'd much rather have this HU now

[/ QUOTE ]

I hate putting in 6 small bets only to fold an overpair on the turn HU. I agree it is the best line. I just hate doing it. It is a mental thing I need to get over.

[Steve Giufre]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I see alot of call and fold to a turn bet unimproved advice, not just in this thread but others that are similar. The question is, what are you looking to improve to with those odds?



[/ QUOTE ]

This has been discussed a few different times and to be honest I really dont think it mattes all that much if he calls the flop three bet or not, assuming he is planning on folding the turn. The argument for calling is so that your opponents dont get the idea that they can just throw a few bets in on the flop and push you off your hand. I think its a little bit bad for your image to make a habit of that play. It's kinda like coming in with raise holding AQ and leading at J52 board. If you fold right on the flop everytime a solid player raises you, you are inviting a lot of player to try and take cheap steal attemps at you in the future. But on the the net, it probably doesnt matter as much as it does live. If it were the last hand Philuva was ever gonna play, I'd say you are right, folding to the three bet is better than calling it and folding on the turn if he doesnt improve. BTW I really liked your post.

[aggie]

Option 2

[M2d]

call the flop
raise the turn
check the river

this all assumes a danger card doesn't come on the turn and a good card (9) doesn't come on the turn or river

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]
call the flop
raise the turn
check the river

this all assumes a danger card doesn't come on the turn and a good card (9) doesn't come on the turn or river

[/ QUOTE ]

I too thought about this line, but it seems every time I execute it, when the BB bets into me on the turn again (whatever the card is on the turn) I am almost certainly behind and spewing chips by raising. Often times when a solid BB holds AK/AQs here and gets smooth called on the flop, they check the turn in fear of getting raised off the hand...and now you've made it an easy call for SB again. Usually they are betting a hand that is ahead of you...and better players in aggressive games will just call that turn raise and bet into you on the river again. Now you've invested two BBs on the turn and didn't get the free showdown and are now unclear if BB is making a desperation bet with AK/AQs (assuming no A/K/Q on board) now that the pot is quite decent in size or if he has a legit hand. I've seen solids make both plays nearly equally.

I think raising the flop somehow makes playing this hand easier, but it still isn't cut and dry.

[TheBusiness]

[ QUOTE ]
I open raise with 99 3 seats off the button in a 10 handed game. A weak player in the SB calls and solid player in the BB makes it 3 bets. I would guess he does this with JJ or better, AKs, AKo, and maybe AQs. I call and SB calls.

Flop is 743 with two diamonds. SB checks. BB bets.

What is your play and your line for the rest of the hand.

I am torn between:
1. calling down
2.raising to knock out SB, and folding the turn if BB 3 bets the flop and bets out on the turn and I don't improve.

What is your line with no SB involved?
What is your line with the SB involved?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd raise the flop to get the SB out, and I would fold to a 3 bet on the flop. When you ask about a line without the SB, do you mean the SB folds preflop to your initial raise? If so, the BB is likely to have 3 bet with a larger range of hands than AA-JJ, AK, AKs, and AQs. In that case I might consider calling down, even unimproved, but without raising the flop.