do we have free will?

hypermegachi · #1 11-01-2005, 09:49 PM

premise 1: God exists outside of time.

premise 2: God can see the beginning and end of time (from premise 1).

premise 3: Therefore, God knows what everyone will do (from premise 2).

conclusion: we have no free will.

jakethebake · #2 11-01-2005, 09:51 PM

Google says yes.

RJT · #3 11-02-2005, 02:49 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Google says yes.

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL. Good one.

I wonder if one really fills in the form if it is free or not. I bet they say you have to pay something for processing. But, I am cynical sometimes.

#4 11-02-2005, 05:56 PM

Given that God can see the beginning and end of time, we can still have free will. Who's to say that God, with this wonderful eyesight, isn't seeing multiple outcomes, as in the many worlds interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Now, if God knows one outcome is better than another, maybe he can cause the better outcome to occur, but maybe he doesn't want to. Hence, free will.

hypermegachi · #5 11-02-2005, 10:36 PM

just because God can have free will doesn't imply that His creations will too.

He can choose whatever outcome He wants, and that has nothing to do with us having will in our decisions.

benkahuna · #6 11-01-2005, 10:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
premise 1: God exists outside of time.

premise 2: God can see the beginning and end of time (from premise 1).

premise 3: Therefore, God knows what everyone will do (from premise 2).

conclusion: we have no free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can know what will happen without the ability to affect the outcome.

Other problems with your argument:

1. You presuppose the existence of G-d.
2. G-d, assuming his existence, could have programmed free will into mankind's existence.

PokerAmateur4 · #7 11-01-2005, 11:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
premise 1: God exists outside of time.

premise 2: God can see the beginning and end of time (from premise 1).

premise 3: Therefore, God knows what everyone will do (from premise 2).

conclusion: we have no free will.

[/ QUOTE ]

You can know what will happen without the ability to affect the outcome.

Other problems with your argument:

1. You presuppose the existence of G-d.
2. G-d, assuming his existence, could have programmed free will into mankind's existence.

[/ QUOTE ]Yup. But if you meant something like
"God exists, in an infinite time span.=given.
Our existence and very material make up is a condition outside of our control. Our condition such as brain construct and thus decisions we "choose" with said brain were outside of our control when being made. Thus we cannot make a choice independent of anything. Thus no free will."
Then I would have to say that's exactly what I have been thinking and why I beleive free will is an illusion.
The god I state as a given is some kind secular or otherwise element or force which created that which is.

benkahuna · #8 11-01-2005, 11:14 PM

G-d could have allowed for free will outside of any material determism that may be built into our brains.

I don't necessarily believe we don't have free will, but the case is much stronger for a "free won't" as elucidated in Benjamin Libet's experiments.

PokerAmateur4 · #9 11-01-2005, 11:31 PM

[ QUOTE ]
G-d could have allowed for free will outside of any material determism that may be built into our brains.

I don't necessarily believe we don't have free will, but the case is much stronger for a "free won't" as elucidated in Benjamin Libet's experiments.

[/ QUOTE ]
1. How could G-d of done that? Logistically?
2. What's a G-d?
3. What is free won't a brief summary of the experiment's findings.

benkahuna · #10 11-01-2005, 11:41 PM

1. G-d can do whatever he wants. Nothing logical about it. I'm blowing off the mechanism because of this idea.
2. Whatever you want it to be. Typically it implies omnipotence.
3. You're gonna have to look it up. It's somewhat complicated and I can't explain it any better than what's out there. I can probably answer questions you have about Libet's experiments.