What am I doing with these aces??

Aaron W. · #1 12-07-2005, 08:03 PM

The original preflop raiser is a bit aggressive preflop. I think he's raising a lot of broadway combos from any position and some of the medium strength aces, and probably a number of pocket pairs as well. He's also quite aggressive postflop (willing to bluff at scary boards, loves to bet when checked to, lots of flop donking).

I checked the flop expecting villain to bet it. This flop came down good for a lot of coldcalling hands, and I wanted to see who would be coming along on the turn. I would be very concerned if the other two players called on this flop. This is a standard slowplaying situation for trip queens, so I wanted to tread a little cautiously and not over-invest on the flop.

Once it was heads up, I decided to let aggro villain keep betting into me. With the weakness of 3-betting preflop, and checking the flop, I saw no reason that he would want to slow down.

Paradise Poker 1/2 Hold'em (5 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. MP posts a blind of $1.
UTG raises, MP (poster) calls, Button calls, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG calls, MP calls, Button calls.

Flop: (13 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP folds, Button folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.50 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 11.50 BB

#2 12-07-2005, 08:14 PM

I think you can check-raise the turn and call down if 3-bet. Villain could be betting with a number of hands you're beating here (from your description KJ, KT, AJ - A8, TT - 77, etc.) and you've probably got 6 outs if you're behind. Maybe call it 5 to be conservative, but I still think you've got to get another bet in here.

I don't know how I feel about the flop check - it seems like this is one of those situations where you know you're going to call a bet anyway, so why not bet out? A lot of hands you're beating will call you here. If you bet, UTG raises, and then someone else calls/re-raises, you can be pretty confident you're behind too.

Aaron W. · #3 12-07-2005, 08:15 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I feel about the flop check - it seems like this is one of those situations where you know you're going to call a bet anyway, so why not bet out? A lot of hands you're beating will call you here. If you bet, UTG raises, and then someone else calls/re-raises, you can be pretty confident you're behind too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more likely scenario: I bet, villain raises, someone coldcalls... Now where am I? Am I really going to check-fold the turn because of the coldcall?

#4 12-07-2005, 08:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I feel about the flop check - it seems like this is one of those situations where you know you're going to call a bet anyway, so why not bet out? A lot of hands you're beating will call you here. If you bet, UTG raises, and then someone else calls/re-raises, you can be pretty confident you're behind too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more likely scenario: I bet, villain raises, someone coldcalls... Now where am I? Am I really going to check-fold the turn because of the coldcall?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm saying - the coldcall followed by any aggression on later streets means business in my book. If you're UI on the turn, you can check/call as long it's one back to you, and you can fold pretty confidently if it's two. This may cost you an extra bet if you're behind, but you stand to win a much larger pot if you're ahead.

Aaron W. · #5 12-07-2005, 08:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I feel about the flop check - it seems like this is one of those situations where you know you're going to call a bet anyway, so why not bet out? A lot of hands you're beating will call you here. If you bet, UTG raises, and then someone else calls/re-raises, you can be pretty confident you're behind too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more likely scenario: I bet, villain raises, someone coldcalls... Now where am I? Am I really going to check-fold the turn because of the coldcall?

[/ QUOTE ]

That's what I'm saying - the coldcall followed by any aggression on later streets means business in my book. If you're UI on the turn, you can check/call as long it's one back to you, and you can fold pretty confidently if it's two. This may cost you an extra bet if you're behind, but you stand to win a much larger pot if you're ahead.

[/ QUOTE ]

How is that different from him calling one bet and waking up on the turn? I don't think I win a much larger pot when I'm ahead because the coldcaller only has such a small range of hands if he's coldcalling the flop.

#6 12-07-2005, 08:20 PM

you're going to 3bet the flop and fold if the coldcaller raises a big bet street.
in this particular situation, you got it heads-up on the flop though, and you would prefer getting at least 2 bets in there.
alarms go off for many people when you 3bet preflop and check the flop. this kind of play will ensure that you only get action when you're behind.

Guruman · #7 12-07-2005, 09:33 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I feel about the flop check - it seems like this is one of those situations where you know you're going to call a bet anyway, so why not bet out? A lot of hands you're beating will call you here. If you bet, UTG raises, and then someone else calls/re-raises, you can be pretty confident you're behind too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more likely scenario: I bet, villain raises, someone coldcalls... Now where am I? Am I really going to check-fold the turn because of the coldcall?

[/ QUOTE ]

I think I bet this flop as well. MP doesn't bother me too much, as he posted, called a raise, then called a reraise. It looks like he got swept along for the ride. If button calls he's got a K or a straight draw. I think a Q may want to raise here the flop with so much action already going on, and if it gets too nutty you can find a way out on the turn.

LoaferGee12 · #8 12-07-2005, 09:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I feel about the flop check - it seems like this is one of those situations where you know you're going to call a bet anyway, so why not bet out? A lot of hands you're beating will call you here. If you bet, UTG raises, and then someone else calls/re-raises, you can be pretty confident you're behind too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more likely scenario: I bet, villain raises, someone coldcalls... Now where am I? Am I really going to check-fold the turn because of the coldcall?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't see how you're aleady giving credit for someone to have a Queen. Even if the action goes like that, I still don't think it's that bad a situation, as you can just continue to bet. The cold-caller will often have a King here as well. If you are really afraid of the Queen after the cold-call, you can always just go in to check-call mode, knowing that either UTG or MP will bet.

Aaron W. · #9 12-07-2005, 10:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know how I feel about the flop check - it seems like this is one of those situations where you know you're going to call a bet anyway, so why not bet out? A lot of hands you're beating will call you here. If you bet, UTG raises, and then someone else calls/re-raises, you can be pretty confident you're behind too.

[/ QUOTE ]

The more likely scenario: I bet, villain raises, someone coldcalls... Now where am I? Am I really going to check-fold the turn because of the coldcall?

[/ QUOTE ]

I just don't see how you're aleady giving credit for someone to have a Queen. Even if the action goes like that, I still don't think it's that bad a situation, as you can just continue to bet. The cold-caller will often have a King here as well. If you are really afraid of the Queen after the cold-call, you can always just go in to check-call mode, knowing that either UTG or MP will bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not giving anyone credit for a queen yet. I'm suggesting that betting the flop and calling a raise doesn't help much in the information department if there is a queen out any more than checking and calling). So the argument is whether bet-calling the flop is more profitable on average (knowing that if there is a coldcaller, I might be giving up my hand on the turn somewhat regularly) or if check-calling the flop to see what unfolds is better.

I've been doing some thinking about playing OOP against aggro villains and trying to find ways to exploit their aggro-ness. I think the line I took has a little to do with this. I like the idea of having position when aggro villain is going to be betting often. I like sitting back and seeing how everyone else responds before committing extra chips to the pot.

I really think the more interesting question is what I should have done after both villains folded. I nearly check-raised the flop. I nearly check-raised the turn. But I froze up and played passively (expecting to collect one bet from villain on each street). If I had a second shot at this hand, I think I'm check-raising the turn.

LoaferGee12 · #10 12-07-2005, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I think you can check-raise the turn and call down if 3-bet. Villain could be betting with a number of hands you're beating here (from your description KJ, KT, AJ - A8, TT - 77, etc.) and you've probably got 6 outs if you're behind. Maybe call it 5 to be conservative, but I still think you've got to get another bet in here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Agreed. I know you want to get that extra bluff bet out of him on the river, but I think he either has a weak pair or draw here enough that he's going to call you down all the way.