DERB - Page 9

BradL · #81 11-03-2005, 12:36 AM

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seriously though, he likes to check and slowplay to induce action it seems. and he balances that with turn raises and river plays that seem nonsensical in isolation but are beginning to make sense.

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ding ding!

Victor · #82 11-03-2005, 01:34 AM

do you guys think derb tilts?

Nigel · #83 11-03-2005, 01:46 AM

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do you guys think derb tilts?

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how could one tell the difference?

Klepton · #84 11-03-2005, 01:52 AM

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do you guys think derb tilts?

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this is seriously starting to sound like little girls talking gossip about NSYNC.

Victor · #85 11-03-2005, 01:55 AM

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do you guys think derb tilts?

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this is seriously starting to sound like little girls talking gossip about NSYNC.

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bobby is the hottest and he totally winked at me last show.

sweetjazz · #86 11-03-2005, 04:47 AM

Maybe I don't understand high limit poker, but I see plays that look very questionable to me.

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DERB CO

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (7 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 checks, CO bets, Button calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Button raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Button bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has 9c Ah (one pair, threes).
Button has Qs Kh (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: Button wins 12.75 BB. 

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How is this a good river call? Unless he has a specific read on the button, this call looks real bad.

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DERB villain

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has As 6s (one pair, kings).
Hero has Qs Td (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 5.25 BB. 

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Again, what hand does he beat here? This pot is very small and the best he can hope for it seems is chopping with Axo.

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DERB button

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, Button raises, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Button bets, CO calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

everyone checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Jc Ad (high card, ace).
Button has 8s Ks (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Button wins 7.75 BB. 

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Bleh. The flop is pretty close to a fold. Given that he continues on, his line is best, but it's not like there's any reason to believe he's found a way to make CCing K8s on the button a profitable move.

sweetjazz · #87 11-03-2005, 05:01 AM

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I think some people in HUSH emulate the DERB strategy (from what I can tell from these posts, having never played against him) - albeit, probably not on purpose.

Playing 6 max I see people who are probably 2+2'ers 3 bet TAG players with hands like AJo, or I even saw a guy cap with KQs after the action went - loose/average open raises UTG, solid TAG 3-bets in CO, possible 2+2'er caps with KQs.

These guys are playing with 32/24 type of stats. Three betting tons from the SB/BB against steal raises (same guy as noted above 3-bet J9o from the SB against my open raise on the button).

I know 6 max is a lot different than 10 handed but these 32/24 stats are also very intersting IMO. I can't see how I could get my numbers that high player 6 max.

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I don't think 3-betting with AJo is necessarily a bad play in a 6 max game, even if the original raiser is UTG. And I will from time to time 3-bet a steal raise from the blinds with J9o or even something like 76s. In both instances, I am more inclined to make this play against a TAG who is willing to release a weak hand that misses the flop. These type of plays are probably slightly -EV taken alone, but put a lot of pressure on your opponents. The goal is to put TAG opponents to tougher decisions. If I only 3-bet with TT-AA and AQ+ (maybe add in 99, AJs, etc. if you like), then an observant TAG will notice this and start folding ATs when it misses the flop. If I am mixing up my play to occassionally 3-bet with weaker hands, then I am inducing mistakes from my TAG opponent and making his postflop decisions more difficult.

Even the cap with KQs doesn't look so bad, especially if our hero has the button. I think folding is often better, but against a TAG who isolates weak players (so that his hand range may include hands like KJ and QJs that KQs dominates as well as more weaker aces), it may be worth seeing a flop. And if you're going to see a flop, capping on the button gives you more flexibility on the flop. You have a better chance of taking a free card if you want one or you may induce a TAG to release a hand like AQ postflop.

From the descriptions of DERB, he takes these ideas to extremes not advocated by most aggressive 2+2ers. But it's not surprising that DERB gets a ton of action on his strong hands, the more aggressive 2+2ers get a lot of action on their strong hands, but the solid ABC TAGs tend to get little action on their strong hands from other good players.

Some say there is no right approach, but I generally disagree. Usually table conditions suggest whether you should play ABC poker or mix things up a bit to throw your opponents off guard. The most relevant variable is how observant your opponents are and how they adjust to what they observe of you.

James282 · #88 11-03-2005, 05:01 AM

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Maybe I don't understand high limit poker, but I see plays that look very questionable to me.

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DERB CO

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (7 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is UTG with 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP2 calls, CO raises, Button calls, 2 folds, MP2 calls.

Flop: (7.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP2 checks, CO bets, Button calls, MP2 folds.

Turn: (4.75 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO bets, Button raises, CO 3-bets, Button calls.

River: (10.75 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Button bets, CO calls.

Final Pot: 12.75 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has 9c Ah (one pair, threes).
Button has Qs Kh (two pair, kings and queens).
Outcome: Button wins 12.75 BB. 

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How is this a good river call? Unless he has a specific read on the button, this call looks real bad.

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DERB villain

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
5 folds, Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Turn: (3.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks.

River: (3.25 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB calls.

Final Pot: 5.25 BB

Results in white below: 
BB has As 6s (one pair, kings).
Hero has Qs Td (two pair, kings and tens).
Outcome: Hero wins 5.25 BB. 

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Again, what hand does he beat here? This pot is very small and the best he can hope for it seems is chopping with Axo.

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DERB button

Party Poker 30/60 Hold'em (9 handed) pokerhand.org hand converter

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 raises, 2 folds, CO calls, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: (7.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
MP1 checks, CO bets, Button raises, MP1 folds, CO calls.

Turn: (5.75 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
CO checks, Button bets, CO calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

everyone checks.

Final Pot: 7.75 BB

Results in white below: 
CO has Jc Ad (high card, ace).
Button has 8s Ks (one pair, eights).
Outcome: Button wins 7.75 BB. 

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Bleh. The flop is pretty close to a fold. Given that he continues on, his line is best, but it's not like there's any reason to believe he's found a way to make CCing K8s on the button a profitable move.

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Right, because his play in hand 1 especially shows he has absolutely no understanding of certain very basic concepts. This makes it impossible for him to a winner of the proportions that people make him out to be.
-James

sweetjazz · #89 11-03-2005, 05:27 AM

If you go through the hands in this thread you see that he had 66 vs KT on a KT6 flop, AA vs KK and AK vs K3 in a blind battle with a K on the turn. Looking at those hands, does it look like he made much more on these hands than most players would make? His lines were unorthodox, but didn't really get him many extra bets.

I haven't seen anything that indicates he has developed a strategy which cannot be countered. Players who are not beating him long term either don't understand basic strategy, aren't observing him carefully enough, or tilt too often against him. His style is such that there will be huge variance in encounters with him and one cannot assess one's play against him based on amount won or lost against him.

While I suspect that many high limit players who are tight and aggressive make mistakes against DERB which helps his bottom line, I doubt they are enough to compensate from the inherent weaknesses in his own style (poor hand selection, putting too many bets in with weak hands).

Enon · #90 11-03-2005, 05:51 AM

Right, because his play in hand 1 especially shows he has absolutely no understanding of certain very basic concepts. This makes it impossible for him to a winner of the proportions that people make him out to be.
-James

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100/200 Party (convertor isn't working for me so i'm retyping from hh)

Fish open raises UTG, Derb gets tricky and cold calls on the button with KK, SB makes it 3 bets, BB cold calls, UTG calls and Derb decides to continue the charade and CALLS

World class.