Newbie Games - I cant seem to win!

[Artsemis]

I know, before you say it... with solid play, Ill come out ahead the majority of the time due to their huge mistakes, which I should welcome.

I play -alot- of small stakes ($5 buy in) 6-10 player games, and I am consistantly losing to people who haven't played more than a dozen times. I have tried making moves which I quickly learned is a bad idea with so many calling stations that dont know the strength/weakness of their own hand. I have also tried playing tight and agressive, which works best but I have still lost alot more than I have won.

From what Ive gathered, instead of waiting on premium hands, maybe I need to see all family pots with no raises in front of me and wait till I hit at least 2 pair. Tonight I tried waiting on premium hands and after awhile I finally hit it, pocket Kings. Problem is, they are fairly easily cracked with enough callers (I bet 70% of the pot on the flop which was rainbow rags... lost to runner runner diamonds, he had JdQd).

Im just trying to ask what should I do differently? AA is scary with 4-5 calls even, the only way I can think is to see the cheap flops with big pots.

[archcity]

My game sounds similar to yours and I have started realizing some success.

I noticed many winning hands showed down as a low or mid pair or even high card, even though there was betting at every stage.

Pre-flop I loosen my raising hand requirements to two face cards or an ace-8 or higher, because a high pair can often win a big pot. I call middle pairs to 2-2, and hope for a set, usually the pots aren't raised. If I get nothing on the flop, I don't mess around with it and get out.

The other players hate aggressive pre-flop raises. But one or two will stay with hands they should fold like A-low or K-low or anything suited. If I get a high pair or something better I string them along with callable bets (or call their bets) and make a bigger bet at the end. At this point they feel they've invested so much they have to call, because they are convinced they are always being bluffed. I am always cautious of the flush draw. Often the losing hand shows down a mid-low pair or a missed flush draw with a face card.

Also rather than a continuation bet (or if you have a pair, but want the pot now) I have been able to use a quick confident re-raise 3 or 4x the initial bet, to get them to fold a drawing hand.

[Artsemis]

I only wish I played with people that knew how to fold sometimes. Otherwise its just luck of the draw and the only control I have is maximizing winnings and minimising losses, no fansy moves.

Problem is, it only takes one big hand to get cracked by trash to cripple you.

[TheCroShow]

in family pots, stay in with hands like J7s, 45s, 45o, etc etc...drawing hands in multiway pots are killers, but only if it's cheap to see the flop.

just remember you CANNOT bluff people, so do not try. if you raise preflop with a nice hand like AK and miss on the flop, make one continuation bet on the flop, if you are called...just check/fold it. you CANNOT bluff them out.

i used to get frustrated by players that would not fold bottom pair, players that would catch "miracle after miracle." i tightened up my play, stayed in with drawing hands and i'm basically the ownerer at poker now, your typical home game hero

[MagicMan08]

Verywell said thecroshow

[Artsemis]

Very nice, I will have to definately give this a try. What about AA and KK... could have I done anything different?


Thanks much!

[ QUOTE ]
Very nice, I will have to definately give this a try. What about AA and KK... could have I done anything different?


[/ QUOTE ]

In HOH1 Harrington talks about having to use proportionally larger bets when playing online since players are less likely to fold to a normal size bet. With AA and KK you could try raising to 5-6 times the BB pre flop and betting 100-120% of the pot post flop.

I'm guessing even the biggest donkeys in the world will fold their 72o to a large enough bet. You just have to figure out what that bet size is for YOUR donkeys.

[snowgurts]

I'm gonna tell a story, so read it if you like, and ignore it if you want, too. But I think it could really help you. Someone I played with and I talked for about 2 hours about this subject...

I was running into some serious issues myself, and with a table that sounds just about exactly the same as yours.

I used to clean up, winning fairly consistantly. But, then, an aggressive play constantly won, so all of the fish started playing his way. Soon, it stopped becoming Texas Hold 'em and started becoming the All-in Bluff Game. Everyone called with everything. And I couldn't adjust. Either I would play selective but way too weak (afraid of getting cracked) or I would play aggressive just like everyone else. It worked sometime, but failed terribly in others. It was a crapshoot.

I was in a long-term slump, like a serious slump. 8 months long, barely winning once a month. I mean, terrible. The worst part was I really couldn't figure out what was wrong. I was in a serious, serious rut. The thing is, the loose-manacical table had "warped" my mind into playing like them, and it just never worked.

So I had a conversation with the aforementioned friend, who had the exact same trouble I did before he snapped out of it. And he asked me -- how do the fish win? I was kind of confused by what he wanted me to answer with, so he answered for me: they (A) bluff you out of the pot; or (B) suck out on you.

Now, how do you deal with those? (A) You play the premiere hands only. You will KNOW you have the best hand, and they'll bluff their entire stack at you. (B) Make it too expensive to suck out. Even if they do, it will cost too much and they will lose in the long term.

Start waiting for the ELITE hands (A10 suited and up, AQ off suit and up, or middle-and-up pocket pairs, basically, loosening up around the button and blinds) and make them pay dearly for their draws.

If you play correct mathematically, you force them to play incorrect mathematically, those fish won't have a chance.

Just some thoughts. Take it with a grain of salt.

[Artsemis]

Thanks for this. I agree with everything said, however those who I play with do not bluff at all - they simply call anything and out of the 5 or 6 of them, usually crack the big hands.

All replies are much appreciated, I really like the idea about drawing hands (suited and/or connectors so when they hit, ill win alot from everyone at the table since they're all going to be involved.

[snowgurts]

Yeah, if that's the case on people calling too much, then my plan of "give them the wrong odds" won't work, because as soon as one of them calls, the rest will have proper odds, so just using the "implied odds" of all those callers is probably your best plan of action.

Best of luck.