Again with cold calling small pairs

[stripsqueez]

i think the pre-flop is fine - a small pair that hits is hard to spot so i disagree that your implied odds arent sufficent - its much more common to win a massive pot than it is to win only 2-3 further BB's when you hit

the turn is awkward - i think its raise or fold - i tend to play this hand conservatively post flop which means i dont chase a lot of flops that dont contain a 4 so i think fold is dodgy but ok

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[rory]

fold preflop

[krishanleong]

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fold preflop

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same and I don't think it's close. You only have 2 opponents to extract your 4 BB from. It's really aweful.

Krishan

[sweetjazz]

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ok youre right. this hand isnt a great example. hes getting the best of it, just not way the best of it. my point was just that there is some pair value. even if it's small, it still contributes to set value

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Yeah, I down with that (your last sentence). I still don't think that's enough to make the PF call right against most opponents (though against some overaggressive postflop players it's good -- small PPs thrive on aggressive postflop play, especially people who put lots of bets in with TPGK type hands). Also, some people (perhaps myself included -- definitely myself a few months ago included) don't play well enough postflop to keep this small edge in these situations. (Putting in bets in the wrong spots and/or not adjusting your line to your opponent's style can erode the value.) But I agree with your point that small PPs can still make a (typically small) profit on some non-set flops.

[TStoneMBD]

i dont like the preflop call without stats or reads. you need to know that there is a strong chance you have the only pair preflop and you need to have an idea of how these guys play postflop to make playing 44 unimproved profitable. the edge you have by playing 44 for a raise in this situation is very small when you have reads. when you dont have reads i believe your edge is negative.

you played the flop right for sure. if you dont know to raise this flop with your pp then the preflop call would be a gigantic mistake.

i dont agree with everyone that the turn situation is close. i think its an easy fold. after UTG calls 2 on the flop and a board coordinating card falls i think you can be pretty sure that youre beaten when someone bets into you. its just a really bad spot to be proceding with your hand.

raising is clearly better than calling the turn, but i would estimate that a raise has significant negative equity.

[stripsqueez]

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i dont like the preflop call without stats or reads. you need to know that there is a strong chance you have the only pair preflop and you need to have an idea of how these guys play postflop to make playing 44 unimproved profitable. the edge you have by playing 44 for a raise in this situation is very small when you have reads. when you dont have reads i believe your edge is negative

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this sounds right to me - except rather than say that you need a read i just think you need to not play it like a chook

i figure i made a pact when i called pre-flop not to spew when i dont hit - but - there is trouble everywhere so now i'm here i cant think too cruelly of the spew turn raise

i just arrived and i'm keen for action - plenty of times someone 3 bets and thats very bad because i fold - some tiny amount of times they all fold - or i hit a 4 - or i get a free river and win

could be chook like but at worst it looks much worse than it is

stripsqueez - chickenhawk

[brazilio]

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I auto-muck these hands preflop. Playing an underpair against 3-4 players in a raised pot seems like one of the last things I would want to do.

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We are getting about 3:1 or 4:1, so we only need to make up around 4 BB when we hit our set. You don't think that happens often enough? Add into it the fact that we do occasionally find other non set flops where we have EV in continuing.

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3:1 or 4:1, but you're not considering the other 6.5 times out of 7.5 when you don't hit your set. Hard to play postflop, and friendly boards just don't happen often.

[Schizo]

Given the flop action, is there any card except a 4 that won't cause you to checkfold the turn? Can you possibly bet a brick?

If the turn gets checked through could you do anything on the river?

[Spicymoose]

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Given the flop action, is there any card except a 4 that won't cause you to checkfold the turn?


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It is impossible for me to checkfold the turn.

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Can you possibly bet a brick?


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Yes, and I will.

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If the turn gets checked through could you do anything on the river?

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I am betting most turns. Those that I don´t, I probably won´t call the river.

[cfjr2]

if i recall you raise 44 FIRST IN from CO or Button and fold otherwise.

Calling a PF raise here is not +EV.