Back-to-back Aces on the satellite bubble?

DownLow · #1 10-21-2004, 08:34 PM

PokerStars $3+rebuy satellite to $650 WPT qualifying tourney. Top 2 players get a seat, third place gets a little more than $400. Final table, 8 players left. I am the short stack, outchipped many times by most of my opps. First hand back from break (9th place went out the hand before the break):
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP1 (t78439)
MP2 (t117760)
Hero (t16920)
Button (t58179)
SB (t47472)
BB (t387241)
UTG (t143909)
UTG+1 (t90080)

Preflop: Hero is CO with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG folds, UTG+1 folds, MP1 calls t3000, MP2 folds, Hero raises to t16770, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, MP1 calls t13770.

Flop: (t34590) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t34590) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t34590) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t34590

Results in white below: 
MP1 has Th Kc (one pair, jacks).
Hero has As Ac (two pair, aces and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins t34590. 

And then this happened the next hand:

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t3000 (8 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 (t61519)
MP1 (t117610)
Hero (t39240)
CO (t58029)
Button (t45822)
SB (t384091)
BB (t143759)
UTG (t89930)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises to t6000, UTG+1 folds, MP1 folds, Hero raises to t39090, CO folds, Button folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG calls t33090.

Flop: (t79080) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: (t79080) 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: (t79080) 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: t79080

Results in white below: 
UTG has 9h 9s (full house, nines full of twos).
Hero has Ac Ah (two pair, aces and twos).
Outcome: UTG wins t79080. 

My question is, is it correct to have pushed with the second hand?

I think the first hand is clear, I was quite short stacked and needed the chips just to survive. However, after doubling up the first time I have some more chips and I'm not quite as desperate. UTG made a min raise, should I have coldcalled it or done a moderate reraise over the top rather than pushing?

I don't want to be results oriented and don't want this to be a bad beat post, I just want some opinions on the risk vs. reward of this move. With only the top 3 spots paying (and only 2 paying the actual tourney seat) I probably needed more chips that I had after the first hand to money.

Just some background on the atmosphere, I had been getting poor cards throughout the tournament and managed to get to this point by playing extremely tight and getting doubled up on the few premium hands I had been dealt. I was a little concerned I might not see another hand before being blinded out. The big stacks were playing quite aggressively and with my stack size I felt I needed premium cards to play a hand. Most of the time my blinds were being bought by bets that would put me all in.

I realize that my goal is to get my chips into the middle when I have the best of it but I can't help but to think that if I had played the hand a little more slowly I might have been able to get away from it, although I have been known to get too emotionally attached to my aces.

I feel like I overplayed this hand in my haste to make a run for the finish. Please let me know how you would play these hands in this situation.

etizzle · #2 10-21-2004, 08:57 PM

[ QUOTE ]
i feel like I overplayed this hand in my haste to make a run for the finish

[/ QUOTE ]

no, no, no, NO, NO.
Repeat after me: 'I like it when people call my all-in when I have aces.' You had better be real close to the money and some people had better be all-in before you act before you could even dream of thinking about 'gettting away' from this hand.

This is a bad beat post.

DownLow · #3 10-21-2004, 09:14 PM

[ QUOTE ]

no, no, no, NO, NO.
Repeat after me: 'I like it when people call my all-in when I have aces.' You had better be real close to the money and some people had better be all-in before you act before you could even dream of thinking about 'gettting away' from this hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
I am not talking about folding my aces before the flop. I am just thinking there is a better way for me to play them than the pre-flop push.

I think if I played them right I could have at least kept some chips or perhaps even won the hand. For example, suppose I just coldcall UTG and push after the flop. He is unimproved and he may put me on a set or 2 pair (or the overpair I have) and fold his hand.

Or suppose I bet the pot on the flop. If he calls, the turn comes 9d completing the diamond board. He will bet big because he just hit his set. I might be able to lay down the aces, thinking he has a flush or set. Pocket aces unimproved are still just a pair of aces.

I am not looking for sympathy with this post, I am looking for ways to improve my game.

Let me append that I was pleased to get a caller and even happier when I was it was a pocket pair. Of course I want people to call my all-in with aces. I don't feel I made a bad move by pushing. But just because it wasn't a bad move doesn't mean there aren't better moves in this situation.

remen · #4 10-21-2004, 09:23 PM

[ QUOTE ]

I am not talking about folding my aces before the flop. I am just thinking there is a better way for me to play them than the pre-flop push.

I think if I played them right I could have at least kept some chips or perhaps even won the hand. For example, suppose I just coldcall UTG and push after the flop. He is unimproved and he may put me on a set or 2 pair (or the overpair I have) and fold his hand.

Or suppose I bet the pot on the flop. If he calls, the turn comes 9d completing the diamond board. He will bet big because he just hit his set. I might be able to lay down the aces, thinking he has a flush or set. Pocket aces unimproved are still just a pair of aces.

I am not looking for sympathy with this post, I am looking for ways to improve my game.

[/ QUOTE ]

Your thinking is totally backwards in this hand. You should be thinking "what is the best way to maximize my profit from this hand" instead of "what is the best way to minimize my losses with this hand". You clearly have no where near the chip stack you need to finish in the top 3 and should be thinking about how you can double or maybe even triple up with this hand to give yourself a good shot at the seat. You obviously played the hand well as you gave yourself a 4/5 chance to double up. Think of it this way, if you had won that hand and gone on to win a seat, would you have questioned pushing here with the aces for even one second?

[ QUOTE ]
Just some background on the atmosphere, I had been getting poor cards throughout the tournament and managed to get to this point by playing extremely tight and getting doubled up on the few premium hands I had been dealt. I was a little concerned I might not see another hand before being blinded out. The big stacks were playing quite aggressively and with my stack size I felt I needed premium cards to play a hand. Most of the time my blinds were being bought by bets that would put me all in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You even said yourself the way you made it so far was by waiting for the premium hands and doubling up with them. Aces are as premium as it gets, so why would you change your strategy now?

fnurt · #5 10-21-2004, 09:30 PM

You have the shortest stack in the tournament and you are not even close to the bubble yet. You should not be looking to win a small pot with AA, you should be looking to get all-in and double up.

On the flop you were a 9-1 favorite. Now, say your opponent stops the hand and that point and proposes a deal. "How about if we each take back T20000 from the pot, and I fold right now?" It would obviously make no sense for you to take this deal. So it makes no sense to wish you had saved some money to bet on the flop.

A bad beat on the turn or the river is NOT God's way of telling you that you should have gotten the other guy to fold sooner. Sometimes you play right and bad things just happen.

DownLow · #6 10-21-2004, 09:34 PM

[ QUOTE ]

Your thinking is totally backwards in this hand. You should be thinking "what is the best way to maximize my profit from this hand" instead of "what is the best way to minimize my losses with this hand".

Think of it this way, if you had won that hand and gone on to win a seat, would you have questioned pushing here with the aces for even one second?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are totally right. I am thinking backwards. I am second-guessing myself and being results oriented, thank you for setting me straight. I suppose the only situation where the push would not be correct is if I thought I wouldn't get a caller?

ethan · #7 10-21-2004, 10:11 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Your thinking is totally backwards in this hand. You should be thinking "what is the best way to maximize my profit from this hand" instead of "what is the best way to minimize my losses with this hand".

Think of it this way, if you had won that hand and gone on to win a seat, would you have questioned pushing here with the aces for even one second?

[/ QUOTE ]

You are totally right. I am thinking backwards. I am second-guessing myself and being results oriented, thank you for setting me straight. I suppose the only situation where the push would not be correct is if I thought I wouldn't get a caller?

[/ QUOTE ]

If you _know_ your push won't be called then you can certainly make a smaller raise, but you should realize that you're then committed to the pot. If you raise to 15K and get called, then there's 33.5K in the pot and you have 24K left. If you'd made it 18K that'd be 39.5K in the pot with 21K left. You have aces, there's no flop that's going to get you to fold, and if you take this route your chips should all be in the middle before the turn.

Chances are good that if someone's willing to call 18K they'll call the push, since it should be pretty clear to them that you're playing for all your chips anyways. The non-push raise actually represents a stronger hand than a push...you only have 11xBB and there's a raise in front of you, go ahead and put your chips in the middle here.

Good play, bad result. Unfortunately that 4:1 favorite still has to lose one time in 5.

Percula · #8 10-22-2004, 03:36 AM

Pretty ideal situation if you ask me.

As has been pointed out by a couple of people you WANT callers with AA and a short(ish) stack, especially in a more or less winner take all tourament.

IME if I am a short stack and push and win with a premimum hand (AA, KK, QQ) that if I push the next hand or even make a huge raise (5x+BB) I am going to get more callers than if I had not just played a big hand. People tend to think "there is no way this guy has it two times in a row and is just playing like he does to scare people".

I might have made it 1/2 my stack to go, hoping to draw more callers, depending on how aggressive the other players were. Then make a minimum bet if checked around to me and flat call with a delay on any bet, again trying to induce action from aggressive players, same on the turn, then if I still am not all-in by the river, get that way and hope all of the others are pot commited or feel they have the pot odds to call.

There is always the chance someone is going to suck out on your AA, but hey they win a lot more than they lose.