($16) AK from the BB

[bluefeet]

[ QUOTE ]
I think if I would have raised preflop here and gotten a call a c/r would be alot better, but given the pf check a bet/3-bet all in is optimal IMO.

That is to say, a c/r is very likely to get villain to fold his hand on the flop or to our inevitable turn push if he does call whereas if he does have an ace (AJ for instance) he is likely to raise me on the flop and I can 3-bet all-in and he may call me.

[/ QUOTE ]


I personally think your first statement is incorrect. Had we raised PF, you are quite compelled to continue on this favorable/draw heavy flop. You are not getting a lead behind not nearly as often having taken the lead PF - certainly not enough to risk a free turn card.

Your second point is possible. Viewing your hand, that is not how I interpreted your intent -- I guess maybe I would have found that in your later reply, but speaking from MP's view, I'm glad I didn't [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

I don't think you are going to get raised on this flop too often with a weak Ace. A loose+passive Ace-x open limp, is not as likely to pound your flop bet. Furthermore, you led nearly full pot. If you were looking for some form of raise opportunity here on the flop, then a donkish-FD-buying minbet might have sold it a little better. But I still prefer checking into MP here - you'll get your lead more often than you will a raise leading any amount yourself.


Edit: I'm not saying checking PF/leading this flop is not standard. I have no problem with this either. There are risks in looking to c-raise here as well. I'm just saying that the more passive check PF can set you up for c-raise opportunities - which you didn't elect to take here. No biggie.

[2Fast2Furious]

[ QUOTE ]
I also raise 77 here.


[/ QUOTE ]

I probably limp from MP this early and fold to any raise if there's more than one caller ahead of me

I don't like your plan to c/r for two reasons:

1. You raised preflop. Any check here will look highly suspicious.

2. Too many draws. Any broadway has a pair, a gutshot, or both. You need to raise pf, and you need to lead out with a bet. No reason to get tricky here.

[11t]

haha, I never said that I would c/r the flop after raising pf but I think c/r in a situation like this isn't getting max value out of your hand man.

I guess I took a few months off from SNG's and played SH NL exclusively two of the few things I learned were this:

1) Check-raising while deep stacked very rarely the right answer in almost any situation.

2) Value betting is key

If you ask a lot of the better NL cash players how many times they check/raised in the past 100k hands I would ball park the answer at <100. Of course how many of those concepts can be applied to SNG's I don't know, but that is what I am here to figure out.

[2Fast2Furious]

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If I dominate any ace or king why do I want them to fold preflop? I want us to hit our hand together and then for him to give me as many chips as possible.

Hence why I checked.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause you got a caller and the blinds to steal! AK doesn't magically win every pot for you and gets cracked a lot so I don't want anyone getting a free card.

[11t]

I do not want to steal the blinds here, they are of no importance to me.

The value of raising early on isn't, "stealing blinds" it is to "generate folds".

Two different concepts.

[bluefeet]

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haha, I never said that I would c/r the flop after raising pf

[/ QUOTE ]

"I think if I would have raised preflop here and gotten a call a c/r would be alot better"
I just wanted to point out that this particular statement is actually a much worse line to consider...had you PF raised, and got called. Not leading on this flop, in this condition would be a mistake

[ QUOTE ]
but I think c/r in a situation like this isn't getting max value out of your hand man.

[/ QUOTE ]
Maybe, maybe not. There are more hands that lead behind a check (which we raise over, for sake of arguement) - than there are hands that call both your modest flop+turn leads. Furthermore, the hands that you WANT to a) call your flop+turn lead and/or b) raise your turn lead...are hands that might also incorrectly call/pushover your c-raise

[ QUOTE ]
1) Check-raising while deep stacked very rarely the right answer in almost any situation.

[/ QUOTE ]
Regardless of chip structure, there are plenty of conditions (#/type of opponent, texture of board, pot/riase amounts, etc.) that make terminating a hand at the earliest possiblitiy a MUST - I'm a stars guy myself for the record [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]


[ QUOTE ]
2) Value betting is key

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Aaaaaaaaabsolutely. You will not find a bigger proponent of post-flop "value betting". I am completely on board with the giving of incorrect odds, etc. My recommendation for considering a c-raise as an alternative on THIS flop was tied directly to your choice to not raise PF. I understand the 'maximize value' options chosing the lead route (see above)

[ QUOTE ]
If you ask a lot of the better NL cash players how many times they check/raised in the past 100k hands I would ball park the answer at <100.

[/ QUOTE ]
[b]I've never been a cash/ring player - I have no reason to doubt you. But speaking for my game only of course, I'm quite certain I am finding c-raise opportunities more often than once every 10-15 sngs (.1%).

OK, now I'm reeeeeeeeeeeeally late for my 2pm meeting! [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[curtains]

The hand is reasonable....folding the river is probably an option but you never know what these guys will turn over, so I dont have a problem with calling either.

[11t]

"I think if I would have raised preflop here and gotten a call a c/r would be alot better" - What I meant is that check/raising would probably induce a bluff more often and get you more chips if you raised pf and c/r the flop than if you c pf and c/r the turn because if he is betting at the flop when I check it is going to be small and he is most likely releasing his hand when I c/r. If I raise pf and he calls and I go to c/r and he bets, he will be betting more chips and when he most likely releases his hand I will have won a larger pot.

However, our miscommunication is that what I should have added is that leading both flops in both scenarios is better than c/ring in either.

And I c/r all the time, but never deepstacked. The C/R is a shallow stack tool that people incorrectly use in deep stacked scenarious IMO.

FWIW if I do c/r when deep stackedit is with a set on an uncoordinated board versus some complete aggressive fool and I c/r the turn when he is pot committed.

[pergesu]

You really should be raising this out of the BB. Don't say "I don't want to play AK OOP." Raise it bigger than you normally would, because you almost certainly have the best hand, but you need to charge your opponent for the privilege of having position on you for the rest of the hand. Make him seriously consider if it's worth it or not.

If he limp/calls with Ax it'll be EASIER to stack him on an ace high flop than when you check. He got involved to hit his ace...so you really think he's going anywhere if you put pressure on him? Nope, he's gladly getting stacked when he pairs his ace - that's why he's involved in the first place. If you pop it to like t75 preflop, you can lead for the pot on the flop, and if he calls there's a pot of t450 on the turn. There you could do something fun like overbet push and force him to make a big mistake.

I go either way on calling the river..probably call since you're getting such good odds. He probably has a big hand (flush is most likely, but maybe he flopped a straight), or crap like a K9 or a small PP. There's no reason for him to bet a marginal hand on the river. Any hand that could win at showdown is going to take it cheap, unless it's quite strong and looking for a VB. Considering that these guys are donks and you're getting better than 4-1 on a call I'm happy to call and pick off a potential bluff.