QQ overpair hand - $200 NL - Page 2

Phoenix1010 · #11 12-02-2005, 07:48 PM

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I'd rather lead turn and c/c that river.

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I agree, could someone explain the benefit of check calling the turn and leading the river?

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Because you don't want goofy to raise you off the best hand/a strong draw.

scdavis0 · #12 12-02-2005, 10:48 PM

My reasoning for checking the turn is that with the queen of clubs in my hand, getting raised is just nasty. Without the queen of clubs my standard line would be to bet, bet, snap bluff.

I'm assuming that everyone who advocates betting the turn, similarly advocates folding to a raise. Playing a 300+BB hand with QQ here doesn't sound like fun.

Chances are pretty good that I have both the best hand AND the best draw so not a lot of harm in checking. It's also doubtful that I have NEITHER the best hand NOR the best draw.. making the prospect of bet/folding the turn just ugly.

On the river, I'm electing to get value from a ton of pairs that will look me up. Obviously I can't fold to the min-raise.

iceman5 · #13 12-02-2005, 10:56 PM

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My reasoning for checking the turn is that with the queen of clubs in my hand, getting raised is just nasty. Without the queen of clubs my standard line would be to bet, bet, snap bluff.

I'm assuming that everyone who advocates betting the turn, similarly advocates folding to a raise. Playing a 300+BB hand with QQ here doesn't sound like fun.

Chances are pretty good that I have both the best hand AND the best draw so not a lot of harm in checking. It's also doubtful that I have NEITHER the best hand NOR the best draw.. making the prospect of bet/folding the turn just ugly.

On the river, I'm electing to get value from a ton of pairs that will look me up. Obviously I can't fold to the min-raise.

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Said the guy who lost the hand. Check/call river is better.

scdavis0 · #14 12-02-2005, 10:59 PM

Do you fold here getting nearly 5 to 1?

iceman5 · #15 12-02-2005, 11:06 PM

No, I would probably call and lose just like I think you did. Over my poker career, I would estimate that when I get min raised on the river, I lose 9 out of 10 times. So 5:1 doesnt cover it. Thats why they min raise you, because they know you cant fold.

Hence, check / call being better. Not too mention it gives him a chance to bluff. There are not too many hands that you beat that will call a value bet there.

But hey, Im in the middle of the worst losing streak of my career so my advice is probably worth what you paid for it.

scdavis0 · #16 12-02-2005, 11:06 PM

If I'm good here 10% of the time why call?

If I'm not good what hands are you expecting to be shown that beat queens up?

And if I am shown one of these hands, it seems that I would have been raised on the turn had I bet and been forced to fold, despite drawing live against those hands.

Isura · #17 12-02-2005, 11:23 PM

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Do you fold here getting nearly 5 to 1?

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Offcourse you have to call the minraise. That's why check/calling the river is usually preferred. When you bet/call that river, you lose the most when behind and only win the initial bet when ahead (unless offcourse the idiot can minraise here with a worst hand...)

Edit: I do like your line of check/calling this turn and your reasoning is good.l My usual line is to lead this turn, but I think your line is better. But doesn't checking the river induce some bluffs since you checked the turn and really looks like you were drawing?

iceman5 · #18 12-02-2005, 11:27 PM

Why call if youre only good 10% of the time? Obviously you shouldnt. But almost everyone will anyway. I just hardly ever see anyone minimum raise the river and lose the hand.

I see people win alot more often when they min raise the river than when they make a much larger raise.

I honestly cant figure out what he has which is why Im 99% sure I would call his raise and Im pretty sure I would lose just based on long term results of similar situations.

It seems like he has the flush, but he played it strangly. You said he was goofy so that could explain his strange line.

scdavis0 · #19 12-02-2005, 11:35 PM

Now that I've got one guy agreeing with the turn play let's look a little deeper.

1. If he has made flush less than King hi, check-calling is better because it costs the same as betting but I actually get to see a river when I'm drawing live

2. If he has a set, check-calling is way better because it costs the same as betting but I actuall get to see the river when I'm drawing quite live

3. If he has a made flush king high or ace high, then bet/folding is better because it saves me money the times on the river that I actually hit my own flush and it's no good

4. If he has any smaller pair (99-TT with or without a club, 66 with a club), he'll likely bet when checked to but not call a bet -- here I have him drawing to 1-2 outs

5. If he has AJ with ace of club or KJ with K of club I avoid getting blasted off the best hand

6. If he has a naked ace or king of clubs he may check or bet smallish and draw out for free/cheap

Against that hand range I think the check/call is the clear way to play the hand.

More on river later.

Isura · #20 12-02-2005, 11:41 PM

Good post. One question though:

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1. If he has made flush less than King hi, check-calling is better because it costs the same as betting but I actually get to see a river when I'm drawing live

2. If he has a set, check-calling is way better because it costs the same as betting but I actuall get to see the river when I'm drawing quite live

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Is villain the type to NOT raise this turn with a set or flush? Because it might be cheaper to bet small on the turn to get a cheap showdown against this type of villain.