boring fold v tag.

What are you calling the Preflop raise for if you are going to fold when you hit top pair? I'd raise the flop, if he 3-bets, then I probably call down.

[wdcbooks]

I am absolutely calling down here. Most players will keep the lead after three betting even if the board makes their hand hopeless. Funny thing is that if people fold top pair good kicker against them it isn't a bad strategy.

I would raise the flop and go from there. Hell I am enough of a laggy bastard that I might raise the turn and check through the river unimproved. I really think you are good often enough here to do battle.

[jba]

I would raise the flop with that cold caller in, but the more I look at this hand the murkier it gets.

[milesdyson]

i tried to post this earlier, but if we raise the flop and call down after a 3-bet, we lose ~100% of the time at showdown.

so if we did choose to raise/call 3-bet, our plan must be to fold the turn unimproved. with the added gutshot outs the pot would probably be large enough to call, but unimproved on the river we could still lay this down.

[jba]

[ QUOTE ]
i tried to post this earlier, but if we raise the flop and call down after a 3-bet, we lose ~100% of the time at showdown.

so if we did choose to raise/call 3-bet, our plan must be to fold the turn unimproved. with the added gutshot outs the pot would probably be large enough to call, but unimproved on the river we could still lay this down.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with this. I like the flop raise becausee I think there's a pretty good chance we are ahead here and I think we can get a lot of value from goofy behind us.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

I think the reason this is good to fold is that he's betting into two people. He's a tag so his 3betting range from the SB is probably AA-TT/99, AK/Q. The only 2 hands I'm ahead of are JJ and 99 and he's not betting into 2 people with those on the turn. I'm in big trounle against anything else.

Believe me I call down a lot when I'm unsure. I think this is a good spot to fold though.

[GoblinMason (Craig)]

[ QUOTE ]
This is pretty close, and depends on how aggro he is postflop. If he's a tighter TAG, and your read is solid, I think it's safe to assume he doesn't lead a UI PP again on the turn => good fold. If he's a lagtag (like me), I think it's a calldown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Will you bet JJ here? It really seems like a losing propsition given 2 callers on the flop on that board.

[wowacedude]

I like the way you think.
you got four outs against AA-QQ-TT-AQ and five against AK. I guess he could have AJ also. I agree with you that this is a reasonable range if you think he is a "ok" TAG.

I don't know how to count hand combinations so i can't do that here. So what i'm saying is that i like it i guess.

I would be grateful if someone could teach me or tell me where to read btw.

-Per

[ QUOTE ]
He's a tag so his 3betting range from the SB is probably AA-TT/99, AK/Q. The only 2 hands I'm ahead of are JJ and 99 and he's not betting into 2


[/ QUOTE ]

You're ahead of KK also. I think he would 3 bet KQs too, and you're ahead of that. I would probably calldown and cry.

[MicroBob]

it might be a losing proposition;...but lots of players make bets that are losing propositions.

I find it entirely possible that he could fire-away again with KK or KQ or A9s or something.


If he's an aware TAG then he has to know that your range of hands is pretty wide and that you don't necessarily have an ace.
You don't know much about the CC'er obviously.


If your read on the TAG is THAT good I think it's an okay fold....but I'm probably calling this down.



Think about the possible logic with A9s for a sec.
He knows that you could be raising with a lot of different hands.
Maybe he knows the CC'er a bit better and sees him cold-calling with almost anything.

Perhaps he sees value ion 3-betting with A9 or A8 or something because he thinks there's a likelihood he has the best hand...and he doesn't want the BB to get into this multi-way hand for cheap.



Again, I'm not saying the fold is a bad play. But I think there are some possibilities in there for you to still be ahead.
Whether that's enough on its own to merit calling-down is debateable.
Obviously you also have other outs in there even if you are behind though.