Ranging Far and Wide

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oh, I see. I'm not really asking you to put me on a hand, I'm not sure how that would be possible. More I'm asking what action I should take with each of the holdings I could have.

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Based upon the way the hand played out, I'm putting you on AsK, two pair with a busted flush draw.

Whether to bet the river or not, is all up to the chances that the opponent would fold his likely holding of 3 Tens.

Possibly the opponent also has a busted flush draw and a piece of the board, with something like KxQs or KxJs.

However, it is unlikely that you would want to risk betting into that.

On the river, I always go back to Professor Sklansky .... whether or not to value bet on the river comes down to the probability of winning the opponents bet when you are called.

There is also the option to bluff. However, you had already hinted that you pretty much ran roughshod over this opponent in your most recent encounter. So I doubt the opponent is going to lay down 3 Tens.

This is interesting. I can't wait for the final verdict.

[ZootMurph]

What is your read on BB? You've played with him before and you've given your idea of his read on you... but nothing about how he's played, except to say he was a big stack.

A decent player that hit the flush here would definitely bet out against you if they read you to be aggressive, hoping you would raise. However, I'd guess a smaller bet of about 1/2 - 2/3 of the pot would be the best way to get you to raise. So I can't see him having a flush. I would have to put him on one of four hands... K with crappy spade kicker, T probably with a good spade kicker, A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], or a QJ with one of them being a spade. Therefore, I'd call with any pocket pair that had a spade, a King with a spade kicker, or QJ with a spade. I'd raise with the flush or with a ten.

On the river 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], I'd bet with the flush, a ten or King with a good spade kicker, because this lessens the chances of being up against a flush, or a busted straight draw (QJ) with a spade kicker. Check behind with everything else.

This is without reads but based on him being a good, aggressive player who thinks you are too aggressive. If your read on him is different, that may change how I'd play it. Finally, it really would help put BB on a hand if I knew what I had. Obviously, if I had A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], it is less likely for him to be holding a T. Part of anyone's read is based on what you are holding, since you can remove two cards he could be holding.

[adanthar]

I assume you can have virtually anything PF and be betting a lot on the flop, but I don't think you bet nothing at all into four people. No big deal, you can have 44 and that's certainly close enough to nothing.

BB calls. Initial read: many kings, any ten, flush draw, QJ, and given he knows you, random medium pairs. He bets the spade turn. Followup read: almost any of those (maybe not Ax [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].)

What can you call with? Hmm. If you have the ace of spades and some random card to go with it, I think you can sometimes semibluff call/push this street, but maybe not if BB knows you well. I'd call KQ (but fold it PF unless it were suited which it isn't). I don't see you calling AK PF but if you have that, it's a call. Any ten is a call. Small flushes are raises, of course. KJ would be kinda borderline but I'd call if the J was a spade. I assume you don't play K9o there, and assume you fold random pairs/trash given your table image.

River: BB occasionally has a full house (and is baiting you). Much more often, he has a ten or a decent king. I don't think I value bet KQ here, but I might bet the AK you don't have and probably JT-T8. I certainly bet QT and better.

An interesting question would be if you could fold a small flush to a CR. Probably.

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I'm very suspicious of BB's call flop (with 2 players to act behind), bet turn when the board 3-flushes. I think I fold AK with no spade here, but call with AsK.

The river check looks weak and I bet AK or better here.

Edit: this could be weak tight.

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I had a similar line of thinking, but I couldn't justify the AK value bet in my mind. If he has a weaker King, is he a strong enough player to muck? Sounded to me like he probably was. If he has the bigger hand, then he fires back.

.....

Then again, if he is sick of getting pushed around, then maybe he could call with a weaker K and the AK is a good bet.

I still could see the opponent checking with 3 Tens here, and not being weak. The OP may have already flushed. Is the OP going to call with AK if the opponent bets into him? Probably not, but it could induce a bluff. The opponent calls with 3 Tens regardless, IMHO, so I don't think I bet unless I can beat trips. (already ruling out a successful bluff from prior session)

Why is no one suggesting that he would bet the flush into the aggressive player? Villain knows that Hero is aggressive and is therefore capable of betting that flop with any two cards. If Villain is aware that Hero is a solid player, Villain should also know that checking the flush here is not likely to get much more action. The last thing I would want, if I were villain, is to check, get checked behind and have that free card fill up Hero.

Once hero calls and that river falls, I think check/call is the best play for Villain. Hero is unlikely to have a boat and probably quite unlikely to just have a king. Hero is likely to have As (if I, hero, dont' have it), or a ten. A check here will let Hero attempt to either bluff the missed draw or value bet trips, and is likely to get more out of the hand than betting.

I don't see what Hero can bet here for value besides the nut flush or a boat. I don't see villain calling with many holdings that beat a hand like JT.

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Why is no one suggesting that he would bet the flush into the aggressive player?

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Respectfully, I don't think there is any way for the BB to have turned a flush based upon the way the hand was played. The key to the breaking down the hand is the flop cold call with the original raiser and two other limpers yet to act. IMHO, this is a foolish play with any kind of strong drawing hand, like AsXs, because he could be pushed off the pot by a UTG or other check-raise. If the BB makes a 4-flush, then he has to fold or semi-bluff raise to either win there representing Tens or thin the field to a head-up game. From what I gathered from the OP, the opponent is a decent intelligent player. What would a decent intelligent player cold call with from the BB with 3 more yet to act on a scary board?

[MLG]

Calling on the flop with a hand like 56 of spades with this action is perfectly reasonable. saying that its unlikely the villain flopped a flush draw because he checked called in this spot is suicidal. Its certainly possible he did, and has to be in his range. We can debate whether its the best way to play it, but just because you dont think its the right way to play a flush draw doesnt mean that your opponent will think that way.

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Calling on the flop with a hand like 56 of spades with this action is perfectly reasonable. saying that its unlikely the villain flopped a flush draw because he checked called in this spot is suicidal.

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Part of where I'm trying to improve is putting opponents on a broader range of hands to not get fixed on a read, and then try to narrow things down as we move along.

You're probably 1-999 or more to be a better player than me, so I'm inclined to agree with your statement that I'm being a little short-sighted in thinking that way.

Now that we are gettng close to the answer, possibly you are leading me and hinting that BB did hold two spades. It would make some sense given the play on the later streets.

It's just that in NL, that kind of play would be so vulnerable to a check-raise, whether for bluff or for value.

Answer please, curiosity is peaking.

[MLG]

still way to much good discussion left for results.

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still way to much good discussion left for results.

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You teaser!!! [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]