Ranging Far and Wide - Page 2

EverettKings · #11 11-13-2005, 03:55 PM

I could see you betting this flop with T8-AT (probably not KT), KQ-K9, and spades (A9s+, QJs, 87sish etc). I could also see total air. Yeah, this is pretty wide.

When he calls the flop and bets the turn he pretty clearly represents the BB special Tx who doesn't want a checkbehind on the three spade board. Maybe he wants you to believe that but it would take some serious guts and a helluva read to try that with nothing. Especially if he sees you as aggro he likely wants action if anything. In any case I dont forsee getting him off of his hand with any consistency. So I dump all bluffs and all kings (even KxQs). That leaves me with T8-AT or the flush. In all cases I just jam the turn. You're representing KxQs type hands and I think you get all of his money when he has the ten.

If you call and get to the river (as you did) then I don't know what he'll be thinking. You might be able to get him off of his hand here but probably not (in other words, I wouldnt have called the turn intending to push here). So I'd probably just jam with any of the hands that I got here with.

Fun spot.

Everett

MLG · #12 11-13-2005, 03:56 PM

oh, I see. I'm not really asking you to put me on a hand, I'm not sure how that would be possible. More I'm asking what action I should take with each of the holdings I could have.

MLG · #13 11-13-2005, 04:01 PM

So far it seems the general concensus is fold all Kings with no spade on the turn. Yet at the same time the concensus is value bet trips on the river. If I had say 108 suited how can value betting the river possibly be right if fold AK of hearts on the turn is right? Aren't they basically the same hand?

mlagoo · #14 11-13-2005, 04:08 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So far it seems the general concensus is fold all Kings with no spade on the turn. Yet at the same time the concensus is value bet trips on the river. If I had say 108 suited how can value betting the river possibly be right if fold AK of hearts on the turn is right? Aren't they basically the same hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

well i almost typed to bet KQ or better here.

i don't think you ever have AK here, is the thing. and i just don't really like value-betting top pair second kicker on this board... it just doesn't feel right.

#15 11-13-2005, 04:10 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So far it seems the general concensus is fold all Kings with no spade on the turn. Yet at the same time the concensus is value bet trips on the river. If I had say 108 suited how can value betting the river possibly be right if fold AK of hearts on the turn is right? Aren't they basically the same hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

The logic's actually pretty simple actually. On the turn, I put him on a range that in which the vast majority of hands crush AK. On the river, I think his check narrows this range down to the few hands that AK beats.

MLG · #16 11-13-2005, 04:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
don't think you ever have AK here, is the thing. and i just don't really like value-betting top pair second kicker on this board... it just doesn't feel right.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 questions then:

1. How often can BB have AK here?
2. Are you value betting trips specifically in case he has KQ (and AK depending on your answer to 1)

A_PLUS · #17 11-13-2005, 04:14 PM

I am going to assume this is a pretty good player.

His call out of position raises some warning. I would give him a pretty wide range, if this were HU, but given a real threat of a C/R from UG with AK, I tighten up his range some.

I think any King is possible, any flush draw, obviously any T, maybe mid-PP, depending on the degree of his aggressiveness, and your agression at the previous FT.

The bet is very interesting. It could be a blocking bet, to try to prevent you from blowing him off his 3 of a kind. It could be a flush hoping you wont believe it. It could be a FH, hoping you made your flush draw. Also, it could be a bluff of any of the above.

So, what will he call with, and what will he fold? Lets assume he will fold a PP, and TP to a raise, but will call with a flush or a Ten.

So, calling with a T, seems correct.

The Kings and Flush, depend on what you think the likelihood of each hand in his range is. You lean against calling with TP, without a high spade kicker, raising would make more sense. raising the flush is only good if he has little or no respect for your cards. Otherwise, let him commit himself on the river with 3oK

EverettKings · #18 11-13-2005, 04:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
So far it seems the general concensus is fold all Kings with no spade on the turn. Yet at the same time the concensus is value bet trips on the river. If I had say 108 suited how can value betting the river possibly be right if fold AK of hearts on the turn is right? Aren't they basically the same hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

BB called the minraise pf right? I guess that does discount crappy tens (even with those odds I don't call with T3o, suited maybe but im not loving it). He could also have a K (KQ and KJ with or w/o a spade are certainly possible against a LP position bet on the flop).

Either way if you like your hand on the turn I'd put the money in there. Speculative calls with marginal hands like K-anything are asking for trouble. I mean if you get to the river like this it can get very fuzzy, especially if he bets out again and you don't have the nuts.

Given that you got to the river, he probably figures theres no value in betting but you might fire if checked to (missed As draw or something). So if you like your hand theres no question that you should fire. The question is whether you like your hand. I guess I'd check T8 and maybe T9 behind but shove anything better.

Everett

mlagoo · #19 11-13-2005, 04:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
don't think you ever have AK here, is the thing. and i just don't really like value-betting top pair second kicker on this board... it just doesn't feel right.

[/ QUOTE ]

2 questions then:

1. How often can BB have AK here?
2. Are you value betting trips specifically in case he has KQ (and AK depending on your answer to 1)

[/ QUOTE ]

1. BB could have AK a fair bit here. The whole not building a big pot out of position thing. Depends on how aggressive he is, generally, I guess.

2. yep. or KJ, i guess.

A_PLUS · #20 11-13-2005, 04:22 PM

River:

I am calling with KJs or better, some flushes, and all Tens.

The check on the river looks to me like a check-call spot for him, he wants to give you a chance to bet QJs, KQ, etc. or he was just on a stone bluff.

I am checking behind with any King, and low 3 of akind Tens. Maybe T9 and below. I am value betting JT+, any flush, and consider bluffing with QJs (cant imagine any other hands I get to river with that would make sense to bluff with)