Disgusting Comment by President Bush

[PoBoy321]

I don't want to get into a whole long argument about whether or not we were justified into going to war in Iraq (I don't think we were, and that the Bush administration did intentionally mislead the US as well as Congress), but this type of rhetoric from Bush is highly typical of the American right. The argument that "If you question us, you hate America and are costing Americans their lives" is bogus and simply another way for them to attempt to cover up their misdeeds both at home and abroad by avoiding and type of descent.

[PoBoy321]

A) Most of these statements (the post-9/11 statements) were based on the misleading, if not outright falsified intelligence supplied by the Bush administration, so they would naturally be incorrect.

B) If you could read, you would see that the two statements made before 9/11 say absolutely nothing about Saddam Hussein actually havin any WMD.

[PoBoy321]

In all fairness to Sen. Kerry, given the climate at the time, he really had absolutely no choice but to vote for military action in Iraq. I agree that it was wrong of him not to do his own check of the intelligence which lead to the vote for military action in Iraq, but even if he had, he really had no choice but to vote in favor of it.

[Felix_Nietsche]

"And even though we have no doubt in our mind that the Iraqi regime is pursuing programs to develop weapons of mass destruction -- chemical, biological and nuclear -- I think the best intelligence estimates suggest that they have not been terribly successful. There's no question that they have some stockpiles of some of these sorts of weapons still under their control, but they have not been able to break out, they have not been able to come out with the capacity to deliver these kinds of systems or to actually have these kinds of systems that is much beyond where they were 10 years ago."
-Colin Powell-
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So Powell admits Iraq is still pursuing WMD, still has WMD.....BUT....it's WMD program is WEAKER than it was before the sanctions. This is a MUCH different from the claim that Rice and Powell said Iraq did not have WMD.

[PoBoy321]

Ugh, I had a much lengthier response written, but I accidentally deleted it, so I'll paraphrase.

In that statement, Powell says that Iraq was pursuing a program had some kinds of WMD, but no way to deliver any kind of attack with them. Granted, that's a step up from saying that they didn't have any at all, but it's still a far cry from considering them an imminent threat as he did on Sept. 12.

[Felix_Nietsche]

In all fairness to Sen. Kerry, given the climate at the time, he really had absolutely no choice but to vote for military action in Iraq.
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Yes, the polls told him to do so. Like most Democrat politicians, Kerry is a slave to the polls rather than his principles. When the polls supported the war, Kerry, Kennedy, Edwards and Pelosi became warhawks in their words and their VOTES. Now, the polls say the war is becoming unpopular so Bush43 sticks to his principles while Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, etc... have done a 180.


I agree that it was wrong of him not to do his own check of the intelligence which lead to the vote for military action in Iraq, but even if he had, he really had no choice but to vote in favor of it.
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Huh!? Is not Kerry on the intelligence committee? and yet you CLAIM he did not check the intelligence? WRONG. The CIA checks the intelligence. The CIA processess the raw data, devlopes their conclusions, and these conclusions are given to the intelligence committees and the president. Are you claiming that the intellgence said there is no WMD in Iraq?????? To claim this you have to believe that:
1. All the Repubs read the intelligence reports.
2. All the Repubs lied to the American public about what the intelligence really said.
3. All the democrats on the intelligence committees skip these briefings while asking the Repubs to "take notes for them" and then stated that Iraq had WMD while INNOCENTLY spreading untruths not knowing their intelligence notes from the Repubs trick them into thinking Iraq had WMD. LOL!!! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]
You are very entertaining. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Sorry buddy but you are delusional. There are volumes of quotes on record of Kennedy, Kerry, Edwards, Pelosi, etc... stating that Iraq illegally possessed WMD. But in your world of make believe Bush was lying but Kerry and the rest of the Democrats were not lying. <shaking my head> How can you reason with the delusional?

[Jedster]

There once was a little Jedster with too much work to do. What to do, Jedster asked, gazing at the ceiling. Ah, let's look and see if our buddy Felix has said something funny today. And Jedster was satisfied. But Jedster had not much time, so he only decided to pick apart two of Felix's funny jokes, jokes he is wont to call arguments or even sometimes "facts".

[ QUOTE ]

1. Both the US Senate and US Congress have intelligence committees.
2. The members of these intelligence committees are given access to SAME intelligence that the PRESIDENT OF THE USA HAS.


[/ QUOTE ]

Um, apparently when Planet Reality called Felix he didn't pick up the phone, because the intelligence committees didn't have the same information as the President had. Sure, the October 2002 NIE was delivered to the intelligence committees, but there was literally tons of behind the scenes information going on within the administration that was not given to Congress. For example, the intelligence community failed to adequately address the quality of the intelligence in the NIE despite debate within the IC. Also take the example of Colin Powell, who along with his Chief of Staff had major misgivings about his speech to the United Nations, none of which was conveyed to Congress until much later.

[ QUOTE ]

6. Bill Clinton is on record stating SEVERAL times Iraq had WMD.


[/ QUOTE ]

Now you start believing him? Bill Clinton was a great politician. A wonderful politician. Catch my drift? In case you don't, what I'm trying to say is that just because Bill Clinton says something doesn't mean it's true.

But that's irrelevant. Because Bill Clinton was not President when Bush decided to go to war. In fact, dare I say it, Bill was probably making love while the drunk cocaine abuser was making war.

[ QUOTE ]
B) If you could read, you would see that the two statements made before 9/11 say absolutely nothing about Saddam Hussein actually havin any WMD.


[/ QUOTE ]

Im sorry bunkie, did you want some of them?

[ QUOTE ]
Bill Richardson > May 29, 1998
"The threat of nuclear proliferation is one of the big challenges that we have now, especially by states that have nuclear weapons, outlaw states like Iraq."

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
Bill Clinton > December 17, 1998
"Earlier today, I ordered America's armed forces to strike military and security targets in Iraq.... Their mission is to attack Iraq's nuclear, chemical and biological weapons programs and its military capacity to threaten its neighbors."

[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
"Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process." -Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998

[/ QUOTE ]

[Felix_Nietsche]

1. How can the Dems claim that Bush lied when the Democrats had the ***SAME*** intelligence that Bush43 had to make the assertion that Iraq still had WMD? Were the Dems also lying about the intelligence?
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Because Bush said that if we don't act, we'd see a mushroom cloud.
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Iraq had Uranium stockpiles that US Troops removed. The UN weapons inspectors knew and inventoried these stockpiles. Since the intelligence stated Iraq was still pursuing WMD, then this is not an unreasonable conclusion. After all, North Korea which is much poorer and much less educated than Iraq, has succeeded in developing nukes.

Because Bush said we found the WMDs.
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I'd rather see an exact quote. Based on the intelligence given to Bush and the Democrats this was not a big stretch.

Because Bush told an adviser to look for evidence of Hussein's complicity in 9/11.
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In a standard police investigation you start with a list of suspects, and then you start ruling out suspects to narrow your search. Bush would have been incompetent not to investigate whether Hussein was involved.

And because Bush sent Colin Powell to the UN with a briefcase full of misinformation.
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Based on information from CIA intelligence. So what.... I think we need to fire a lot of CIA officials. They send an Ambassador with no experience to investigate uranium shipments from Niger, they don't require him to sign a confidentiality agreement, AND...........they let him write a Wall Street Journal Op-Ed. Why not send his wife who is a supposed WMD expert. Ask yourself this: If you have a covert agent and you want her to remain covert are you going to employ her husband, not require him to sign a confidentiality agreement, and let him write an Op-Ed in a major newspaper? Do you think there might be some partisan Bush haters in the CIA who are using their position to attack Bush?


2. Was Clinton lying when he said Iraq had WMD?
Bill Clinton is a pathological liar. I have been consistent, in the years since I have been posting on 2+2 in both my distaste for Mr. Clinton and in my pointing to incidences of his dishonesty.
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We agree on something. At least you’re more consistent than some of the mindless Bush bashers on this forum.


3. Was Kerry lying when he said Iraq had WMD?
I don't know. Mr. Kerry's vote authorizing the use of force without doing his homework was reprehensible.
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Did not do his homework???!!!! He was on the intelligence committee! He received the most advance intelligence the CIA could provide. There was no homework to do. He just had to attend the committee meetings and listen to their conclusions.

Certainly the current finger-pointing of those who so voted should remind us of that there is plenty of blame to go around.
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Oh really! I have heard you bash Bush but I have not heard you Bash Kerry, Edwards, Kennedy, Pelosi, etc.... Do think your partisanship in blinding you somewhat?


I hear many Dems claim Bush is an idiot yet they are trying to claim Bush43 outsmarted them into thinking Iraq really had WMD. So I guess Bush43 is an EVIL GENIUS who trick the lilly-white-innocent-Democrats into voting for a war in Iraq.

[PoBoy321]

Yes, where by saying "The polls told him to do so," I'm sure you mean "The climate after 9/11 was such that any Senator who voted against the war had no chance of reelection, and, let's be honest, anyone's first priority in a job is to keep it." It wasn't a matter like tax reform or transporation where he had some room to wiggle, he had to choose between voting for the war which was going to be approved anyway and losing his job. Also, isn't a politicians job to represent the interests of his constituents, so would it really be the worst thing in the world if he DID make decisions based on polls? Granted, I think it's great that Bush is a man of principle, but he would do well to reevaluate those principles when it has lead to nothing but failure after failure.

As for your second assertion that I claim Kerry didn't read the reports, I was simply responding to another poster in this thread (I thought it was you, I guess I was wrong) who claimed that Kerry hadn't read the reports. Of course I think he read the reports, my point was that it certainly seems as though those reports were fabricated/exaggerated either by or at the behest of members of the Bush administration, which were passed onto Congress, and used to mislead both legislators and the American people. Evidence has since come to light that corroborates that and Democratic politicians are trying to take the administration to task for what they see as a concentrated effort to mislead both them and the American people.

Also, fabrication of intelligence reports would certainly not take such a large conspiracy. One order from a high ranking administration official would have been more than sufficient to fabricate reports.