Playing AKos on the Flop

[TaintedRogue]

I am having trouble finding the best play in certain situations, against the good players I compete with live in my area. We have several games, all week long, ranging from 10/20 to 20/40. The majority of the players are tough, and since you see them often, even though there is about 50 who play in the various games, we know each others play fairly well.

AK is a supreme starting hand, however, there are many instances after the Flop, where I find myself struggling with a decision. Take the following for example:

MP limps with Q [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and I raise on the Button with A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. The BB calls with 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] AK's hand has 42.48% pot equity preflop, however, the Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

AK retains 36.54% pot equity, due to the overcards and backdoor straight and flush draws and has 6 outs to his overcards. Even if AK discounts his outs to 5, he has sufficient implied odds to call.

The problem that is created in this scenario, is that when AK just calls, he gives away his hand, i.e., he raised pre-flop and now just calls MP's bet on the Flop. MP now knows that he has either AK or AJ. 65 has less than 7% pot equity and even if AK raises on the Flop, 65's equity goes to QJ and AK's equity is decreased by 1.5%.

You now see the dilemma: If AK makes the proper play, i.e., call, he gives away his hand, and against the tough players I'm up against, if an A or K comes on the Turn, they are going to bet out and fold when I raise, calling only enough to minimize my attempts at stealing.

Can I disguise my holding by just calling with KQ, AA, two pair, or a set in this situation? Yes, I would have raised pre-flop with TT or 88, but I would not have raised with QT or T8 suited. Furthermore, can a set of Ts or 8s really afford to just call the Flop with the board so coordinated?

Your input would be greatly appreciated.

[RED_RAIN]

After reading this I think you may be playing a bit over your head or maybe you are just really into thinking about hands.

Just because you call, you say everyone knows you have AJ or AK. That's pretty nuts as I think there are more hands you could just call with. I also think you leave out if you have 2 pair, As, or AQ that by not raising you give someone a chance to call a gutshot behind ya.

Also, who's to say if an A or K comes on the turn you have to raise? On this board, I think you should, but if it was less coordinated, maybe not.

Also, if you don't have an A or K and they put you on AK or AJ, why not bluff raise when one comes and you hold 9s or Js here.

I really think there is no magic answer to your dilemma. How to play AK unimproved after the flop is never a comfortable situation. But I will say this, when you have position against passive opponents you should tend to play your overcards more aggressively and against aggressive opponents you should tend to play more passively. For instance: In the hand example you listed, if your opponent is passive, you should raise the flop and go for the free card, if he is aggressive you should just call the flop and either fold the turn or call the turn depending on your pot odds. Heres another example: Say 3 people limp in and you raise with AcKc, and the BB also calls so you have a total of 4 opponents. If flop comes out 10h 8d 2s and all four opponents check to you, you should bet if all your opponents are passive and check if any of them are aggressive. The reason you would bet such a weak draw against 4 passive opponents is becuz of the high likelihood of you getting a free card. Against agressive opponents you should take your free card right away on the flop. Notice online, betting your AK on a 10 8 2 board against 4 opponents is a clear mistake becuz the game is never passive enough, but in a real life casino you often find many games where a bet on the flop will induce everyone to check to you again on the turn giving you that valuable oportunity to see the river for free.

[TaintedRogue]

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After reading this I think you may be playing a bit over your head or maybe you are just really into thinking about hands.

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I am into "thinking about hands," as I am reading Yao's Weighing the Odds........I'm not playing above my head, as I win in the long run. I have been playing Hold Em for 5 years and started at 5/10 in Atlantic City and have built up a 12K bankroll, while having spent some of my winnings.
I have found that I have to "think deep about hands," as I am against the same tough opponents. Not the same every night, but 60% of the players I play are tough and some nights they are all tough. It would be a lot easier if I could just play year round in Atlantic City against the same tourists that only come in the summer and a few locals.

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Just because you call, you say everyone knows you have AJ or AK. That's pretty nuts as I think there are more hands you could just call with.

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I am a player who bets his premium, as well as less than, hands 95% of the time, i.e., I hold Q9s in the BB and it's raised to me with 3 opponents and the Flop comes KJT, I'm betting into the field. I'm also betting into the field when I have AT a good portion of the time. In those situations, they don't know what I have. It's sweet when someone with 2 pair raises and I just call and check the Turn and then re-raise.
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I also think you leave out if you have 2 pair, As, or AQ that by not raising you give someone a chance to call a gutshot behind ya.

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There is only one person behind me, and yes, you are, and that is why I would raise, once again, limiting my holdings when I just call.

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Also, who's to say if an A or K comes on the turn you have to raise? On this board, I think you should, but if it was less coordinated, maybe not.

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I know, but I'm talking about this board only. Maybe in this situation, you are just stuck with having to give up your holding.

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Also, if you don't have an A or K and they put you on AK or AJ, why not bluff raise when one comes and you hold 9s or Js here.

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If I had 9s or Js here, I would either fold or raise, depending upon my read. Some of these players get lost watching the football game or a conversation, or just get excited and give off tells at certain times during the evening.
I do as you suggested, but they'll call and then check to me on the River. Some will check to me even if another Q falls on the River.

What I'm trying to find, is the best play, in this specific example, against good players. I find none, as you can't slowplay AA,KK, two pair or a set.

[TaintedRogue]

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Also, if you don't have an A or K and they put you on AK or AJ, why not bluff raise when one comes and you hold 9s or Js here.

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You know, it never dawned on me that Js & 9s gives you a gutshot...........So, I could call with those on the Flop also, however, he still "knows" he has me beat going into the Turn.

The delimma: A made hand cannot afford to just call this Flop. If I have KQ, I have to raise and he knows he at least has kicker problems.

[TaintedRogue]

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I really think there is no magic answer to your dilemma. How to play AK unimproved after the flop is never a comfortable situation. But I will say this, when you have position against passive opponents you should tend to play your overcards more aggressively and against aggressive opponents you should tend to play more passively. For instance: In the hand example you listed, if your opponent is passive, you should raise the flop and go for the free card, if he is aggressive you should just call the flop and either fold the turn or call the turn depending on your pot odds. Heres another example: Say 3 people limp in and you raise with AcKc, and the BB also calls so you have a total of 4 opponents. If flop comes out 10h 8d 2s and all four opponents check to you, you should bet if all your opponents are passive and check if any of them are aggressive. The reason you would bet such a weak draw against 4 passive opponents is becuz of the high likelihood of you getting a free card. Against agressive opponents you should take your free card right away on the flop. Notice online, betting your AK on a 10 8 2 board against 4 opponents is a clear mistake becuz the game is never passive enough, but in a real life casino you often find many games where a bet on the flop will induce everyone to check to you again on the turn giving you that valuable oportunity to see the river for free.

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From your reply, I deduce that many of you think I do not know how to play poker. I do. I know all this. I've studied 7 different books on Hold Em. I've been playing poker for 20 years and Hold Em for 5years. I was a winning lowball player in Sacramento and 7-Card Stud player in Atlantic City until I fell in love with Hold Em.

I am talking about this "specific" example.

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[ QUOTE ]
I really think there is no magic answer to your dilemma. How to play AK unimproved after the flop is never a comfortable situation. But I will say this, when you have position against passive opponents you should tend to play your overcards more aggressively and against aggressive opponents you should tend to play more passively. For instance: In the hand example you listed, if your opponent is passive, you should raise the flop and go for the free card, if he is aggressive you should just call the flop and either fold the turn or call the turn depending on your pot odds. Heres another example: Say 3 people limp in and you raise with AcKc, and the BB also calls so you have a total of 4 opponents. If flop comes out 10h 8d 2s and all four opponents check to you, you should bet if all your opponents are passive and check if any of them are aggressive. The reason you would bet such a weak draw against 4 passive opponents is becuz of the high likelihood of you getting a free card. Against agressive opponents you should take your free card right away on the flop. Notice online, betting your AK on a 10 8 2 board against 4 opponents is a clear mistake becuz the game is never passive enough, but in a real life casino you often find many games where a bet on the flop will induce everyone to check to you again on the turn giving you that valuable oportunity to see the river for free.

[/ QUOTE ]

From your reply, I deduce that many of you think I do not know how to play poker. I do. I know all this. I've studied 7 different books on Hold Em. I've been playing poker for 20 years and Hold Em for 5years. I was a winning lowball player in Sacramento and 7-Card Stud player in Atlantic City until I fell in love with Hold Em.

I am talking about this "specific" example.

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In the example you gave, you already know you have the odds to call, so your choices are between raising or calling. I would tend to raise the type of opponent that will just call with a better hand and check to me on the turn, and I would tend to just call an opponent who is more likely to 3 bet me or call me and still bet into me on the turn.