L08 full ring :: Bottom Set :: River fold

[beset7]

First hand at table. Posted a late position blind. What's your default line here vs. unknowns? Only guy I've played with much is BB and he is a certifable LAG.

Party Poker (8 handed) FTR converter on zerodivide.cx

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG+1 Raises, Folded to me, I call, SB Calls, BB Calls

Flop: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 Bets, Hero Raises, SB Folds, BB Calls, UTG+1 Calls.

Turn: 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB checks, UTG+1 checks, Hero checks.

River: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
BB bets, UTG+1 Raises, Hero Folds, BB 3-bets, UTG+1 Caps, BB Calls.

Opinions on the preflop call, turn check and river fold would be appreciated [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[Burdzthewurd]

Oy, easy easy fold preflop, for the following reasons:

1) Very weak double-suited hand, you can't have much confidence if LAG holds 2 of your suit, very likely to be higher cards.

2) No low draw (28 is worthless even HU)

3) Bottom set is easily outdrawn, and you will have the lowest full house possible everytime.

Flop isn't terrible for you, as you do have a set, and most players don't play 89xx for a raise, so you will usually still have the best high hand on the turn. Or will you? You should post what limit this is at, since that might influence on what hands the blinds are calling with, but often players will peel one off even for two bets with overpairs in this spot. The only safe card for you is a 2, 7, or T. Any A-3-4-5-6-8 puts a low on the board, and any KJQ9 puts another straight draw or possible straight on the board.

Turn is probably the best card that doesn't make a full house for you, you need to bet here, don't give a free card to an overpair or straight draw, and punish the low draw as well.

River fold is ok. You could see both players having A3 or A4 here, but usually see some straight here a lot of the time as well.

[beset7]

20/40. Higher then I usually play online but the stakes don't bother me.

Thanks for your thoughts Burdz. I'll post my responses after a few more people chime in.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
UTG+1 Raises, Folded to me

[/ QUOTE ]

Beset - Looks to me like you just sat yourself down in a tight aggressive ring game. I can't think of a single good reason for me to play in a tight aggressive ring game. Not one.

Therefore I'd concede my post and quit the table. If someone welcomes me into a game by stealing my post, screw him and all his ancestors and all his descendents. May a thousand diarrhetic seagulls fly over his car windshield. Better yet, over his head.

If I had a better starting hand, maybe I'd tough it out, but 228T, even though double suited, is horrid.

You didn't ask about your flop raise, so I won't address it.

But if you're going to call the pre-flop raise and play the hand, and if you're going to raise the flop bet, then I think you have to bet the turn. (You made what basically is a classic free card play - but what card do you want other than the case deuce?)

And you also should call on the river, despite the very strong possibility somebody has a straight.

Just my opinion.

Buzz

[Burdzthewurd]

[img]/images/graemlins/shocked.gif[/img]

[jb9]

I'd probably fold preflop; I think the 8 is a real problem in this hand -- if it were any other card, I'd like the hand more (although 9 or 7 wouldn't increase my affection for it too much).

But since it is going to be shorthanded, I can see calling and hoping for a flop that fits your hand and not an early position raiser.

The check and call 2 by the LAG BB on the flop would worry me, but I would still bet the turn.

I definitely fold the river.

[beset7]

Thanks everyone.

Preflop: I knew it would shorthanded and I would have position. Most flops are going to miss this hand, but given the aggressive nature of the game I'd often be willing to jam an assortment of non-nut high hands.

The turn: My big mistake it appears. My thought at the time was nobody is folding any big draws and frankly i think I get check/raised on that turn a large percentage of the time. But still, the turn is an obvious bet.

Thet River: I think the river got screwed up mostly because of the missed turn bet. One added benefit of betting the turn is that my opponents would have likely checked to me and gone for the c/r there if they hadn't gassed it on the turn and I could have taken a free showdown.

Anyways, I posted this hand because I've been going through my DB and looking at questionable river folds. In these more aggressive games, people often jam the later streets with low hands and a weak high trying to push out a better high (I know I do this) instead of just settling for half or a quarter, and this is the classic scenario where that was happening.

A pair of tens and a 3rd nut low took 3/4s of this pot. Interesting hand.

Buzz: Your post was very humorous. I know we'd all like to play in loose passive games with big multiway pots. But, as I move up stakes the games play more and more like Limit Hold Em. I don't always flee the game; there needs to be atleast a couple producers... Like in this case, I knew I was going to have position on a genuine fish and two random hands. Sounds good to me!

Once again thanks. The turn is such an obvious bet! I think I must have been playing a lot of NLHE earlier that day where checking the turn with position is a standard pot control measure with a vulnerable hand.

[Cooker]

I think this is a clear fold preflop. What hand are you hoping to make with this piece of trash? Bottom set, a low with your 82, or an T high flush? None of these are going to be able to stand any bet.

I don't mind the play on the flop since you are likely up against only a low draw and the board isn't terribly coordinated.

I think you should bet this turn. If you get check-raised, you can fold. Often, I wouldn't be surprised if the other players all have low hands, and they may decide to give up their one way low draws here.

I think the river is a clear fold. With 4 to a straight on board and a low possible with a bet and a raise to you, I don't like your chances of getting half this pot. I probably call 1 bet if I am closing the action on the end.

[sy_or_bust]

Preflop, you should fold, unless you want to run a re-steal bluff which I wouldn't advise in a vacuum. Calling should be unthinkable..

Raising the flop is OK, but I'd rather wait for a safe turn card. If you raise the flop, and get callers, you aren't sure how to react to tricky turn cards like the 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], when you could have re-evaluated in a smaller pot. Waiting for the turn allows you to raise high cards, possibly a [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]/[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], etc., and it is much much more likely you won't get played off the best high.

As you played it, checking through the turn is awful IMO. Giving your opponents a free shot at half the pot sucks once you've decided that your bottom set is good.

The river is an easy fold, and may have been a fold without the raise from UTG+1, IMO. This board sucks for bottom set. These situations happen a lot, which is why the flop is generally a weaker time to get money in with decent/vulnerable high hands on low-draw boards.

[gergery]

I think calling preflop with one of the worst hands in LO8 was your biggest mistake.

Not betting the turn was also a mistake.