Which streets are atrocious and which are just bad/so-so?

scdavis0 · #1 10-21-2005, 12:50 PM

Literally the very first hand of the session, so nary a read to be found. My default play with AK here on the flop is to c/r most good flops -- 934, A73, 228
check fold the bad ones -- QJ9, 78T
and check call the dangerous ones -- KQx, AQx

I think most people are going to hate the flop play, but I think it rates better than the turn or river.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $2 BB (5 handed) converter

Button ($81)
Hero ($200)
BB ($102.45)
UTG ($146.90)
MP ($304.55)

Preflop: Hero is SB with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP raises to $8, 1 fold, Hero calls $7, 1 fold.

Flop: ($18) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $11, Hero raises to $25, MP calls $14.

Turn: ($68) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $50, MP calls $50.

River: ($168) 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets $117 (All-In)...

TheWorstPlayer · #2 10-21-2005, 12:55 PM

You beat small stakes no limit by check/folding the flop.

Edit: If you want to c/c flop, c/f turn I would be supportive. I think either line is fine. Anything else is spewing, IMO.

unlucky513 · #3 10-21-2005, 12:57 PM

i don't like it - if you decided you were taking this hand to the end, i think your flop c/r is too small.

i think the only hand that folds the river is a missed draw.

#4 10-21-2005, 01:03 PM

I have my own issues with AK, but I think you either lead with a continuation bet on the flop or check-fold as the guy above me said.

scdavis0 · #5 10-21-2005, 01:10 PM

Check calling this flop is certainly worse than check raising.

I don't have issues in not being able to beat 1/2 NL for 10PTBB+/100.

I firmly believe the flop check-raise is fine. I think the turn is shut down time. Clearly the river is desperation.

TheWorstPlayer · #6 10-21-2005, 01:24 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Check calling this flop is certainly worse than check raising.

[/ QUOTE ]
This is not true. They will never fold a better hand here. And you often have 6 outs here if you're not already ahead. They very rarely fire a second barrel on the turn with a worse hand. By check/raising the flop you just give them a chance to blow you off your 6 out draw and lose more when you are behind.

scdavis0 · #7 10-21-2005, 01:40 PM

Certainly he won't fold a better hand here.

However, he will fold all the hands that I'm beating (which is many many hands). There is much to be said for this.

If called, while I am admittedly behind, I am not paying too large a price for seizing the initiative in the hand. I have solid fold equity on a good turn card such as a queen, jack or diamond. And it actually gives my 6 outer some implied odds that a lame check/call would not.

I won't argue that c/r is better than folding because it's close. But c/c is without question the worst of the 3 options available.

All that being said, the turn card was terrible, yet I followed through on the turn anyhow. And desperation bluffed the river. Yes, the turn and river are the real problem here.

ajmargarine · #8 10-21-2005, 01:41 PM

[ QUOTE ]
This is not true. They will never fold a better hand here. And you often have 6 outs here....

[/ QUOTE ]

Very true. He's not folding a pp here because all villian sees are those 4's on the board and says to himself 'he called my pfr with a 4 in his hand. No Way.' and he calls. Plus we got bluffable diamond outs if we want them.

stu-unger · #9 10-21-2005, 01:48 PM

c/r'ing the pfr on an ugly board can be beneficial. i dont think it is good for any of the reasons u stated though. why do u want worse hands to fold? i can see c/r'ing the pfr if i think it may get me a free card oop or give me some implied odds.

why r u so intent on trying to win this pot oop with A high? i think c/f, c/c lead, lead, c/r are the best ways to play this flop and in that order...

xorbie · #10 10-21-2005, 01:48 PM

Because he open raised, I don't particularly like raising this flop. He could definitely have [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or a mid PP or even 67. I think you end up having to go the distance here (as you did) too often.