Interesting ruling..

[Randy_Refeld]

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This dealer was just plain lazy whether the stacks were 20, 25 or 19 chips and misrepresnting the stack by 1 chip is no more excuseable then misrepresenting it by 5.


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This is where poker is diffrent. Unless asked to count (like this case) the dealer should not touch the bets unless bringing them into the center.

[Rick Nebiolo]

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A dealer could be forgiven for stating that five 19 chip stacks is $500

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This is the only part I disagree with.
The fact that any stack COULD be 19 or 21 chips is the reason the dealer HAS to break it down and not just 'eyeball' it.
Failing to double-check it is inexcuseable......

......This dealer was just plain lazy whether the stacks were 20, 25 or 19 chips and misrepresnting the stack by 1 chip is no more excuseable then misrepresenting it by 5.

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Now that I think about it you're right. Of course as mentioned below he only counts if asked.

~ Rick

[Rick Nebiolo]

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I see more and more NL problems being posted because there are very few people playing that are familiar with NL procedures. In the past there were only a handful of NL games and the players all knew the rules and places that spread them woudl have floormen that knew the rules so it worked out well. Now NL is being played by inexperienced players with inexperienced staff.

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Bingo!

~ Rick

[Al_Capone_Junior]

I agree dealers should not touch the stacks until asked. but at that point, if the dealer is going to announce $500, then he needs to count it and make sure that's how much it really is.

al

[Rick Nebiolo]

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I agree dealers should not touch the stacks until asked. but at that point, if the dealer is going to announce $500, then he needs to count it and make sure that's how much it really is. - al

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Agree. In my above post I meant if asked "how big the bet".

My understanding is the dealer *should* never announce or count the size of the bet unless asked by a potential caller/raiser. This is so he doesn't induce or reduce action. Of course if he is asked, he needs to count any stack of "non-eyeball" size (let's say more than five chips) so he doesn't make an error.

Regarding *should*, I'm not sure this is standard most places and it certainly isn't consistently done even where it is policy.

~ Rick

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My understanding is the dealer *should* never announce or count the size of the bet unless asked by a potential caller/raiser.

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Though I have heard this (it has never been an instruction from my floor) I disagree with it in principal. I firmly believe that in running the game efficiently the dealer should announce the action accurately as it occurs so that all players know what the action is. However for the sake of speeding the game I do not think the dealer should breakdown and count large bets (especially all in bets which are are not likely to be called by multiple players).

Especially when dealing with smaller bets the rule that you can't announce a bet size could easily bring the game to a crawl.

blinds 2/5 UTG raises to $25. If I don't announce the raise to $25 and just announce a raise the follwing will happen.

Player throws in a single red chip
Dealer: Sir, there has been a raise.
Player stares at Dealer blankly
Dealer: Sir, its more to call there has been a raise.
Player: stares blankly
Dealer: Sir what would you like to do here sir?
Player: There was a Raise?
Dealer: Yes
Player: Who raised?
Dealer the gentleman to your right with multiple chips in front of him?
Player: I call
Dealer: Ok then.
Player: how much is it?

If I can announce the bet size I can skip right to

Dealer: Its $20 more to call.
Player: who raised.
Dealer: The player next you with $25 in front of him.


Also when players use $1 chips breaking it down and counting it may be relevant to the calculating the rake.

Another issue is in determining whether a raise was legal or not. Player A shoves out an odd sized stack of chips and Player B announces raise to $200. If I have not counted Player A's stack I can not know whether a raise to $200 is legal or not.

I am a firm believer that if counting the bet will speed up the game and make it run more efficiently then a dealer should count the bet. This is a often a judgment call