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#22
09-25-2005, 07:06 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
nothing to do with "spouting off." calling with A2s in a raised pot is losing play, you are often dominated, and often need to hit somewhat big to win. over time it will cost him $. A2s is trash here.
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#23
09-25-2005, 07:51 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
I would fold this preflop. To all the folks arguing that this is an easy preflop call, let me ask you something. Would you call with A2o here? My guess is that all of you would fold. If so, how did an extra 6% turn an easy fold into an easy call?
The problem with this hand is not just that you're not going to make a flush that often and not just that your kicker is absolute crap so you can't make any money even if your magic A flops. The biggest problem is that you're being asked to put in 1 BB with this hand preflop. This seriously kills your implied odds. Had the pot not been raised, I would limp for 1 SB with this many limpers, but 1 BB is too much.
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#24
09-25-2005, 07:53 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
nothing to do with "spouting off." calling with A2s in a raised pot is losing play, you are often dominated, and often need to hit somewhat big to win. over time it will cost him $. A2s is trash here. [/ QUOTE ] The chance that somebody has a bigger ace, while important, is far from enough to push this to a clear fold. How is it any better in this sort of game in an unraised pot, where people are just as likely to limp w/ A7s or A9o as they are to raise w/ AJ or AK. You keep saying its a looser, you can't justify why. If Hero has any clue on how to play post flop he can easily let go of this hand if he flops an ace and the action dictates that he's dominated, and he isn't just playing against the one guy that might have a better ace, he's getting an overlay from 5 other players. ITs not like this is heads up. lf
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#25
09-25-2005, 08:15 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
I'm slightly confused by your implied odds statement. True you're putting in 1bb as opposed to 1sb, but so is the rest of the field. So...
If you call 1sb preflop, flop a flush draw and call 1.5bb to get there your investing 2bb to see the river card. there would be 3.5 bb in the pot preflop. Combine this with 1.5bb from other players on the flop and 2bb on the turn (3 flop callers and 2 turn callers) there ends up being 7bb in the pot when you see the river card. I don't pretend to be an expert at all of this, but that looks to me like risking 2bb to see a river card in a 7bb pot, or 3.5 to 1. Now if you call 1bb preflop, that total investment increases by 1/2 of 1 bb, so a total of 2.5bb. The pot size, however, increases dramatically (3.5bb, assuming same post flop action). So now your risking 2.5bb to win at least 10.5BB which is 4.2:1. Both examples assume that you collect no bets on the river (since obviously you won't hit). The chance of flopping a draw in this situation remains the same whether preflop is raised or not, doesn't it? Like I said i'm not claiming that anything I stated above is correct or applicable, and if it isn't please correct me, but I don't see how the pot being bigger preflop hurts your implied odds. Wouldn't you consider raising with this hand if there were that many limpers to you? I would. Maybe thats a mistake, but its one that is recommended in HPFAP. Would you raise this hand out of your BB w/ 6 players in the pot? I would, again as recommended in HPFAP. I'm really not trying to be combative, but small suited aces have always been a problem for me, and i'm really trying to identify situations where playing them is a good move, and too me this looks like about as good of a spot as you can ask for, especially if the blinds are loose. lf
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#26
09-25-2005, 08:40 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
I'm slightly confused by your implied odds statement. True you're putting in 1bb as opposed to 1sb, but so is the rest of the field. So... [/ QUOTE ] For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that all you care about is hitting a flush. (Obviously, you may also win by hitting an A or two pair or whatever, but I'm just trying to make this simple to illustrate what I'm saying.) If the flush is all you care about, you need approximately 15:1 to make your preflop call correct. So let's consider the two situations (raised vs unraised) separately. Raised --------------- Making the liberal assumption that SB, BB, and UTG will all call and no one will 3-bet, you're getting 6:1 immediate odds. Clearly, there is a deficiency between the odds you're getting right now (6:1) and the odds you should be getting (15:1) to make your call correct. This means that if you call, you're telling me that you'll be able to win another 9 BB from postflop action those times that you actually make the flush. I emphasize postflop because you cannot double-count the preflop action. Unraised --------------- If we once again assume that SB will call and neither he nor the BB will raise, you're getting the same 6:1, but now you only need to make another 9 SB postflop to make up for the deficiency between the immediate odds and the odds you should be getting. What I described above is what people refer to as "implied odds." Now tell me, which one do you think is easier to make up for postflop, a 9 BB deficiency or a 9 SB deficiency? And do you think you'll be able to make another 9 BB those times that you actually hit your flush? I could also have made the same point by just exaggerating the preflop scenario. That is, assume that it's capped by the time it gets to you and some magic oracle is telling you that the same 6 opponents will see the flop together with you. Would you call 4 SBs cold with your A2s? If so, you're saying that now you'll be able to make another 18 BB from postflop action if you hit your flush. And so on....
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#27
09-25-2005, 09:02 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
lil, to imply that i did not state my reasons for folding preflop is absurd. you are either not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore what you read. it is ok to disagree, but at least be honest. the hostility you seem to show in most of your posts is unnecessary. if you actually missed my reasoning, then read the posts above.
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#28
09-25-2005, 09:39 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
lil, to imply that i did not state my reasons for folding preflop is absurd. you are either not reading my posts, or choosing to ignore what you read. it is ok to disagree, but at least be honest. the hostility you seem to show in most of your posts is unnecessary. if you actually missed my reasoning, then read the posts above. [/ QUOTE ] No hostility intended, honest. The last thing I want is to be viewed as one of those spiteful never can be wrong posters. I'm here to learn, but I can't do that without asking questions... sorry if I came across as hostile. lf
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#30
09-25-2005, 10:44 PM
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Re: A2s in a 10/20 game. flop and turn questions.
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] I'm slightly confused by your implied odds statement. True you're putting in 1bb as opposed to 1sb, but so is the rest of the field. So... [/ QUOTE ] For the sake of simplicity, let's assume that all you care about is hitting a flush. (Obviously, you may also win by hitting an A or two pair or whatever, but I'm just trying to make this simple to illustrate what I'm saying.) If the flush is all you care about, you need approximately 15:1 to make your preflop call correct. So let's consider the two situations (raised vs unraised) separately. Raised --------------- Making the liberal assumption that SB, BB, and UTG will all call and no one will 3-bet, you're getting 6:1 immediate odds. Clearly, there is a deficiency between the odds you're getting right now (6:1) and the odds you should be getting (15:1) to make your call correct. This means that if you call, you're telling me that you'll be able to win another 9 BB from postflop action those times that you actually make the flush. I emphasize postflop because you cannot double-count the preflop action. Unraised --------------- If we once again assume that SB will call and neither he nor the BB will raise, you're getting the same 6:1, but now you only need to make another 9 SB postflop to make up for the deficiency between the immediate odds and the odds you should be getting. What I described above is what people refer to as "implied odds." Now tell me, which one do you think is easier to make up for postflop, a 9 BB deficiency or a 9 SB deficiency? And do you think you'll be able to make another 9 BB those times that you actually hit your flush? I could also have made the same point by just exaggerating the preflop scenario. That is, assume that it's capped by the time it gets to you and some magic oracle is telling you that the same 6 opponents will see the flop together with you. Would you call 4 SBs cold with your A2s? If so, you're saying that now you'll be able to make another 18 BB from postflop action if you hit your flush. And so on.... [/ QUOTE ] You mean SBs. Just going from odds of flopping a flush (not how much u win if u hit an ace). 8:1. So w/ a raise multiply that to 16:2 now subtract...u need to make up 16sbs for your 2sb investment. If we dont consider the blinds coming along, we can for sure count on UTG calling...16-9.5 = 6.5SBs of implied odds u have to make up postflop if u flop a draw. Now if we consider BB coming we have to make up 5.5sbs. Depends on who blinds are but if sb and bb call w/ a ton of hands, best case u would have 12sbs in the pot (granted that is BEST CASE scenario). Most of the time u are in position where u have to make up 5.5sbs postflop. Which w/ a game this loose u can probably do. This is only counting the times u would only by hitting a flush and not the times u hit your ace and take it down.
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