3-bet this river?

illegit · #1 09-06-2005, 04:38 PM

UTG is extremely loose passive post-flop. Recently called a river bet with Q-high against me, and overcalled a river bet with NINE high in a 3-way pot I wasn't in. Either drunk or retarded, but is usually calling all over the place, rarely betting. Can i 3-bet on the end? Also i should have lead on the flop but the river is my concern here.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises, MP calls, 3 folds, Hero 3-bets, UTG caps, MP calls, Hero calls.

Flop: (12.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, MP folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (7.25 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG calls.

River: (9.25 BB) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, UTG raises, Hero calls

Results in white below: 
Hero has Kd Ah (two pair, aces and kings).
UTG has 5c Ac (two pair, aces and fives).
Outcome: Hero wins 13.25 BB.

kapw7 · #2 09-06-2005, 04:47 PM

[ QUOTE ]
UTG is extremely loose passive post-flop...
... but is usually calling all over the place, rarely betting. Can i 3-bet on the end?

[/ QUOTE ]

That answers your question?

Going back to see the results now

car ramrod · #3 09-06-2005, 04:59 PM

what are his pf standads? Your read is he is very passive post flop, but he looks aggressive both pf and post based on this hand.

Not sure if I would 3 bet this river.

Disconnected · #4 09-06-2005, 05:10 PM

If you trust your reads, then I wouldn't 3-bet the river. You're behind most reasonable capping hands, and chopping with another AK. Plus, the flush draw just came in, and a loose passive player is raising the turn and river aggressor.

I don't mind the check on the flop against a pre-flop capper; if he bets and MP raises, I'd get out.

illegit · #5 09-06-2005, 05:19 PM

The fact that he's 'loose' is certain, the 'passive' part of the read comes from the fact that he's always calling with literally nothing. He'll sometimes bet when he has a piece of the board though, but his play is highly HIGHLY erratic. The fact that he's raising me only tells me he has SOMETHING but it could be an A-trash kicker given his erratic play, but it also could be JT or diamonds. Given the fact that the river completes 2 draws I don't hate just calling the raise.

J. Stew · #6 09-06-2005, 05:21 PM

Sure, three bet if he's calling down with nine high, he could have AQ or even AJ if he's as bad as you described. I think this is very read dependent because most people know if they raise on the end, like he did, they're gonna get called given the action up till then. He probably thinks his A10o is good here, I'd feel comfortable three-betting and think most of the time he just calls and you win. When he caps there's a possibility he has AQ or worse, so I'd call, but wouldn't like it nearly as much as when he just calls.

Edit: I missed the part that says he 'rarely raises though', that changes my answer to a call.

@bsolute_luck · #7 09-06-2005, 05:26 PM

i couldn't avoid looking at results, but i'll post my original thoughts before i read that: i'm more concerned with a slow played set than the flush as there are no reasonable PRF capping hand that would have the flush, so no, i'm not 3-betting that river for that fact.

illegit · #8 09-06-2005, 05:34 PM

Here's a couple hands I witnessed prior to this hand. Which lead me to believe he was most likely literally drunk and therefore putting him on a hand would most likely be a worthless exercise. Villain from 1st hand is BB here, and SB in the next one.

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, Hero completes, BB checks.

Flop: (5 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, CO calls, Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (5 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets, CO folds, Hero folds, BB calls, UTG calls.

River: (8 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, MP calls, BB calls.

Final Pot: 11 BB

BB has 3s Qd (high card, queen).
UTG has 7c 8c (straight, jack high).
MP has 3c 5c (one pair, fives).
Outcome: UTG wins 11 BB.

-----------------

Literally the next hand:

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
1 fold, MP calls, CO calls, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: (4 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, MP bets, CO calls, SB calls, BB folds.

Turn: (3.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP checks, CO bets, SB calls, MP raises, CO calls, SB calls.

River: (9.50 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB checks, MP bets, CO calls, SB calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

SB has 8h 4s (one pair, kings).
MP has Kh 7s (three of a kind, kings).
CO has 3c 9c (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP wins 12.50 BB.

(CO must be his brother)

-------------------------------

Very next hand

Party Poker 0.50/1 Hold'em (6 max, 6 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img].
UTG calls, 2 folds, Button calls, 1 fold, BB checks.

Flop: (3.50 SB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, Button checks.

Turn: (1.75 BB) 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB checks, UTG bets, Button calls, BB raises, UTG calls, Button calls.

River: (7.75 BB) 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players)
BB bets, UTG folds, Button calls.

Final Pot: 9.75 BB

BB has Jd 9d (flush, queen high).
Button has Kc 6d (high card, king).
Outcome: BB wins 9.75 BB.

-------------------------

So against an opponent who's brain seems to be functioning on even a basic level i think just calling the raise on that river is a no-brainer. Against this opponent I wasn't sure though.

aces_dad · #9 09-06-2005, 06:01 PM

After seeing these two hands by villian, I would 3bet the river / call if capped. His play is just too crazy to put him on the rational range of hands which beat you here.

Also, it would be best not to list results, as it's just too tempting to look at them and then the replies will be biased.

#10 09-06-2005, 06:37 PM

I would 3-bet the river. You have a strong hand, and he could have a wide range of hands, including AQ, A5, A2, Ax, KQ, K5, K2, Kx, Q5, Q2, and Qx. It's true that he could also have a straight or a flush, but with his wild pattern you already observe, I wouldn't fear it.