I'm bad at NL

[SL__72]

but I really like tourneys... This is a hand from a final table of one of those 10+1 27 person SNGs.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter

CO (t3275)
Button (t9490)
Hero (t7405)
BB (t7525)
UTG (t6553)
MP (t6252)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t200, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t800</font>, MP calls t600, Hero calls t600.

Flop: (t2425) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Obvious lead? If so what size bet?

[ QUOTE ]
but I really like tourneys... This is a hand from a final table of one of those 10+1 27 person SNGs.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em Tourney, Big Blind is t200 (6 handed) converter

CO (t3275)
Button (t9490)
Hero (t7405)
BB (t7525)
UTG (t6553)
MP (t6252)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
<font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP calls t200, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero completes, <font color="#CC3333">BB raises to t800</font>, MP calls t600, Hero calls t600.

Flop: (t2425) 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]

Obvious lead? If so what size bet?

[/ QUOTE ] These are my specialty, I've played about 600 now, My results have fallen off lately but I started out nice. With that said I hate small pairs. If you insist on calling this bet, you have to continue with your read that villain has a couple of high cards, so make a continuation bet of about 1/2 the pot. 1000-1200T and see what happens

[Rduke55]

I play a lot of these and would expect mid-high PP from the BB. If he smooth calls you, then what do you do on the turn? Plus there's a good chance you'll get reraised even if he's got AK or AQ. And who knows what that other guy has.
As much as I hate to say it. -ugh- I hate when people say this (even though they're usually right). Fold Preflop.

[Rduke55]

As it is though, since you're in I'd check-call a suspicious, continuation-looking bet then make your move on the turn if another low card comes.

[nightlyraver]

I'm always calling preflop since there is enough money behind the two other players to pay you off if you hit a set.

On the flop, this hand is very, very marginal. Think about it - your hand is vulnerable to almost any card in the deck and you're drawing to 2 outs if villian has an overpair.

I would let my read dictate my actions. Against weak-passive players I may bet about 1/2 the pot and hope to take it down, but realize that this bet is almost like a bluff.

If the raiser is a thinking player of any sort, he will almost always raise since very often you will be betting with a vulnerable holding that can't take any heat.

[ QUOTE ]
I'm always calling preflop since there is enough money behind the two other players to pay you off if you hit a set.
There may be enough money but the odds they will hold something strong enough when you hit that set 1 out 12 times is pretty dang unlikely

On the flop, this hand is very, very marginal. Think about it - your hand is vulnerable to almost any card in the deck and you're drawing to 2 outs if villian has an overpair.

If you've made the error of proceeding to the flop, you need to play it like you have top pair until someone gives you a reason not to.

I would let my read dictate my actions. Against weak-passive players I may bet about 1/2 the pot and hope to take it down, but realize that this bet is almost like a bluff.

If the raiser is a thinking player of any sort, he will almost always raise since very often you will be betting with a vulnerable holding that can't take any heat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow the logic, why are we very often betting with a vulnerable holding?

[TomHimself]

Check-Raise AI.

[SL__72]

Good call.


Actually I bet 1200 and they both folded.

[SixgunSam]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'm always calling preflop since there is enough money behind the two other players to pay you off if you hit a set.
There may be enough money but the odds they will hold something strong enough when you hit that set 1 out 12 times is pretty dang unlikely

On the flop, this hand is very, very marginal. Think about it - your hand is vulnerable to almost any card in the deck and you're drawing to 2 outs if villian has an overpair.

If you've made the error of proceeding to the flop, you need to play it like you have top pair until someone gives you a reason not to.

I would let my read dictate my actions. Against weak-passive players I may bet about 1/2 the pot and hope to take it down, but realize that this bet is almost like a bluff.

If the raiser is a thinking player of any sort, he will almost always raise since very often you will be betting with a vulnerable holding that can't take any heat.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't follow the logic, why are we very often betting with a vulnerable holding?

[/ QUOTE ]

"Vulnerable holding" because of the way the hand was played pre-flop. He knows at best you probably have a pocket pair and with the completion of the SB, then a call of his raise, there is no reason to think you have anything above middle pocket pair, but can you say for certain that this guy doesn't have aces or kings? He knows this too and could pop a substantial re-raise with any hand. That's the advantage of raising and the disadvantage of calling clearly illustrated.

[nightlyraver]

First, the odds of hitting a set are 7.5:1 against, not 1 in 12. Very substantial difference. And yeah, against 2 players in a raised pot, the probability that more money goes into the pot are quite good in many cases. The raiser may have a big pair, hit top pair, or fire a continuation bet. The 2nd player may have a good pair, make 2 pair, bluff, continue with a draw, etc.

Also, why do we always assume that 66, as an overpair, is the absolute best hand? I would proceed cautiously if my hand takes any heat. Reads are crucial in these mediocre situations.

Why is the hand vulnerable? Ok, let's work through some likely scenarios:

1) Hero bets half the pot; Villian1 raises; Villian2 fold; Hero???

2) Hero bets half the pot; Villian1 calls; Villian2 raises; Hero???

3) Hero bets half the pot; Villian1 folds; Villian2 call; the turn is the Q; Hero???

Hero's holding is very vulnerable. Against 2 overcards and a flush draw, Hero is behind. Against 2 oponents with 4 unique overcards, Hero does not have a better than average chance of winning. If Hero is raised, even if the raise likely is a semi-bluff, Hero is put into a difficult situation in a big pot. It would be very loose to call raises with this holding. Also, many cards can come on the turn that will ruin Hero's hand, making the rest of the hand very difficult to play.

I'm not saying that betting is bad, it just usually isn't worth it unless you have a read that will suggest that more likely than not both players will fold. Specifically, Hero should be pretty sure that the preflop raiser will not make a play for the pot.

Lastly, Hero's hand is very obvious. Either it's a small pair or a draw since Hero did not raise preflop and did not go for a check-raise or a passive call.