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  #1  
Old 08-17-2005, 02:29 AM
Zim Zim is offline
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Default LO8 preflop pot equity ram \'n jam advantage?

Yeesh, what a mouthful.

Anyway, a situation has come up a few times and I sure could use some feedback:

Pre-amble: A while back, I read some article pertaining to Limit Hold'em that stated even if you knew you had the second best hand, a lot of callers would still make it profitable to pump the bet up to the maximum (I think the site was called "Playing with the Fish")

Does the same principle apply in Omaha?

I was in late position the other day, with A2s, and half the table kept raising and re-raising preflop. Bets got capped, most were fish, but there was a tight player in there that I was certain had a stronger hand.

I joined the fray and was rewarded with a flop so hideous it missed everyone ... but the question:

Does there exist in LO8 a preflop pot equity ram 'n jam advantage?

Sorry for the newbie question.

Best,
Zim
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  #2  
Old 08-17-2005, 10:58 AM
kitaristi0 kitaristi0 is offline
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Default Re: LO8 preflop pot equity ram \'n jam advantage?

In Zee's book he says something along the lines of (don't have the exact quote):

"If you start jamming early, you add only a little bit to your edge."

He also says a lot of preflop raising adds marginally to your profits but greatly to your fluctuations.

[ QUOTE ]
Does there exist in LO8 a preflop pot equity ram 'n jam advantage?


[/ QUOTE ]

Since most O8 starting hands run so close in value, I'd venture a tentative no. However, with your strongest starting hands (A23, AA2 etc.) you'll definitely want to raise (as long is gets more money in the pot instead of knocking out players).
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  #3  
Old 08-17-2005, 11:05 AM
sy_or_bust sy_or_bust is offline
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Default Re: LO8 preflop pot equity ram \'n jam advantage?

[ QUOTE ]
Since most O8 starting hands run so close in value, I'd venture a tentative no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Careful. In heads-up, go-to-showdown simulations this is true, but in multiway pots there are a number of hands, including A2s-xx, which win far more than their fair share, and especially so when opponents play poorly.

If the table is wild preflop and you can get bad players into the pot with weak hands, jam the preflop every time with your good hands. The raises are profitable. You're going to be folding the flop or drawing to the nuts, while they are always drawing to non-nut hands.

The big difference from LHE revolves around second-best hands. They tend to turn into second-best draws much more often in O/8 (i.e. A3s vs. A2), which makes raising less correct. You may have some equity advantage multiway, but in these situations raising fits Ray Zee's variance advice much more closely.
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  #4  
Old 08-17-2005, 02:20 PM
Ironman Ironman is offline
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Default Re: LO8 preflop pot equity ram \'n jam advantage?

One other piece of advice that fits in with the suggestions given.

As I have moved up in limits, I've noticed at 2/4 half kill (which is basically a 3/6 game) the opponents are starting to get tricky.

At this level, you might want to start employing the check raise rather than just betting out.

I've been caught with an A 3 in late position when the A 2 did not bet out and he waited for the check raise against me.

In limit, I believe it is better to tread carefully on your non-nut hands and just hammer away at the nuts when you can at the turn and river.

(Exception...last night I tried the check raise with a set against the straight draw with some success after all the discussion last week.)

Good luck,

Dave
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  #5  
Old 08-17-2005, 02:57 PM
kitaristi0 kitaristi0 is offline
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Default Re: LO8 preflop pot equity ram \'n jam advantage?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Since most O8 starting hands run so close in value, I'd venture a tentative no.

[/ QUOTE ]

Careful. In heads-up, go-to-showdown simulations this is true, but in multiway pots there are a number of hands, including A2s-xx, which win far more than their fair share, and especially so when opponents play poorly.

If the table is wild preflop and you can get bad players into the pot with weak hands, jam the preflop every time with your good hands. The raises are profitable. You're going to be folding the flop or drawing to the nuts, while they are always drawing to non-nut hands.

The big difference from LHE revolves around second-best hands. They tend to turn into second-best draws much more often in O/8 (i.e. A3s vs. A2), which makes raising less correct. You may have some equity advantage multiway, but in these situations raising fits Ray Zee's variance advice much more closely.

[/ QUOTE ]

Now that I have Ray's book in front of me it seems the quote I was looking for is:

"When you start jamming early, you add only a little bit to your edge, unless some terrible players are in the pot."

So it seems you are correct sir. I withdraw my earlier statements, but still emphasize that I, as a O8 novice, am careful not to start jamming without a very good hand, but I'm sure that as I gain some more experience under my belt I'll start getting a better feel for which hands you can jam it up.
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  #6  
Old 08-17-2005, 03:07 PM
gergery gergery is offline
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Default Re: LO8 preflop pot equity ram \'n jam advantage?

The more I play Limit O8, the more I come around to Ray’s point of point that preflop raising is only marginally valuable. You get more money in early, but you also give away part of your hand, and likely lose some bets on later streets.
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  #7  
Old 08-17-2005, 04:03 PM
pipes pipes is offline
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Default Re: LO8 preflop pot equity ram \'n jam advantage?

In your specific example, I don't think an A2s is enough to jam especially if there is another tight player you have pegged for an A2.

I'd want at the minimum something like A23 suited to ace, or A245, AA24. Hands like that.

It does add to fluctuations but all 'good bets' usually do.

I try to maximize my pot equity advantage on all streets. Gergery is right that future streets should be a consideration. But if anything I think a raise will help tie on other players to their hands and then they draw to non nut flushes and lows. It will also make it more correct (and possibly cheaper) for you to draw to a few backdoor targets on the flop.
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  #8  
Old 08-18-2005, 02:22 AM
Zim Zim is offline
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Default Thanks, gentlemen.

All responses were greatly appreciated.

Sadly, despite all the wonderful advice ... I seem have fallen into an immense losing streak. I'll toss another post up on it ...

Best,
Zim
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