Putting Fish to the Flame. Harmless fun, or education?

[illegit]

It's often said not to criticize a fish for his/her poor play. The logic is that you don't want them to realize they are making mistakes and correct them. I think this has some merit against some decent-mediocre opponents who just have some leaks in their game; no need to help them out. But against a true fish I feel there is no danger whatsoever in roasting them, ESPECIALLY after their bad play has just won them a pot.

I doubt you could ever convince a terrible, non-thinking player that they made a bad play if it resulted in them winning the pot. Thus I feel there is no harm in roasting their play in such a circumstance, and in fact are even benefits. They interpret that as you being upset that they got the best of you, not that you understand something they don't. All the more reason for them to keep playing their normal game; they can get lucky and scoop a pot every once in a while and make an opponent mad. They love that type of stuff! It's what the fish live for. This scolding will almost never result in them going home and re-evaluating their play, rather they will gleefully remember when they 'upset' you by hitting a 2-outer against them and really look forward to doing it again. I say roast away.

PlayerX: "You limped in w/ 83 UTG? WTF were you thinking moron?"

FishyMcFish's thoughts: "yeah, i was thinking I'd limp in and flop 2-pair against your AA and win this pot, just like I did. BOOYA!"

What FishyMcFish doesn't think: "Oh crap. you're right. This play is probably costing me money in the long run. I need to start thinking big picture. let me go home and re-evaluate my life, and come back next week as a solid player ready to take your money!"

If fish were capable of having these thoughts they wouldn't be fish.

Now, if a fish has just made a bad play and lost a pot there's no need to flame him, in fact there's every reason to let him think he made a good play but got unlucky. In those spots encourage the fish if the opportunity is there.

But one may respond "OK, but what benefits are there to roasting them?" A few possibilities. First you can put them on tilt and they'll try to come after you even more often with garbage than they normally would. The caveat is that if talking trash puts YOU on tilt and makes you start going after the fish in bad spots and affecting your game, then you shouldn't do it. But even if you don't talk trash they might be affecting your play so this is something that always needs to be considered regardless either way.

[srm80]

you must NEVER, under any circumstances, "Tap the Glass". This play is -EV IMO. I think everything you say at the poker table has to have some kind of strategic value to it, even it you are carrying on a normal conversation. You must realiza the cause and effect of ALL of your actions at the poker table, and how it will effect the game, your image at the table and how your opponents play. Plus it is never polite to criticize anyone's play IMO. If you want to try to get someone to go on tilt, aim your comments at a solid player, since you are trying to get his money too. You shouldn't be pushing the fish around along with another solid player, you should try to establish dominance over the entire table. If you want to appear friendly, do that, if you want to appear aggressive and mean, do that, but everything you say and do should effect your image at the table and you should try to effect the way your opponents play against you. Poker is war my friend, even at the lowest levels. Notice inthe mob movies, the hitmen are always smiling and friendly, just before they do some guy? That should be you.

[phish]

Sounds like you have low emotional control and cannot control your outburst and are just trying to find some justification for your childishness.

Learn to understand the game better and you won't have such issues.

[nickg1532]

i think you're overlooking the fact that, whether or not they take your "advice", berating them might cause them to get up and leave. most poor players are playing for fun. they're playing poker because they enjoy it. certainly, being called an idiot is not enjoyable. so while they may not learn the proper play from your tirade, they very well might realize it is not worth it to sit at a table with a bunch of jerks who are telling you time and time again how stupid you are.

so from a self-interest perspective you are probably not doing yourself any favors by potentially scaring them away. also (and this may or may not matter to you) most of them simply don't deserve to be berated. the bad beat they put on you wasn't personal--they just don't know any better. this doesn't mean they should be called an idiot. nobody deserves that for trying to have fun playing a game (albeit one they don't properly understand). now if the guy is an a$$hole to begin with, then ok, but i don't think this is the case for most of these bad players.

[autobet]

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berating them might cause them to get up and leave. most poor players are playing for fun. they're playing poker because they enjoy it. certainly, being called an idiot is not enjoyable.

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[pzhon]

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But against a true fish I feel there is no danger whatsoever in roasting them, ESPECIALLY after their bad play has just won them a pot.

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I think you are wrong by a lot.

There are all sorts of rationalizations people give for antisocial behavior. "I was just putting him on tilt." "He's too stupid to understand." etc. The fact is that you are making it less pleasant for casual players to play poker. Even if you don't care about being a jerk, poker would not be nearly as profitable without the casual players.

In addition, enough repetition does make people aware of basic facts of poker. For example, not every ace is playable. It takes much longer for fish to realize that if no one says, "How could you play A3o?"

Now, maybe you are right, and you can soothe your wounded ego by telling off a lucky fish. Maybe I am right, and doing so is horribly destructive. What is the risk/reward ratio? How sure do you have to be that you are right in order to make up for the damage you will do if you are wrong? I think the conclusion is pretty clear: Grow up, and stop berating the fish.

[Eder]

PlayerX: "You limped in w/ 83 UTG? WTF were you thinking moron?"

FishyMcFish's Says : "yeah, i was thinking I'd limp in and flop 2-pair against your AA and win this pot, just like I did. BOOYA!" but he thinks to himself "hmm raise means that moron prob has big PP and he's too dim to get away from it ...my implied odds are astronomical here...lets take a look at this flop."

FYP
[img]/images/graemlins/smirk.gif[/img]

[LomU]

this is a horrible move, you are only empathising with the way YOU would react, if you were the fish being berated.

Many fish arent like you and act differently to certain situations. Unless you are a psychiatrist, then it's best to just play it as we always have.

[illegit]

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i think you're overlooking the fact that, whether or not they take your "advice", berating them might cause them to get up and leave. most poor players are playing for fun. they're playing poker because they enjoy it. certainly, being called an idiot is not enjoyable.

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Certainly this is true and a relevant point, depending on the player. Some players highly enjoy confrontation, and I was more thinking about players who make bad plays and are themselves cocky trash-talkers of sorts despite their poor play and lack of understanding of the game. But yes this is a good reason not to berate a fish (in live play anyway, i think flaming a fish online in the comfort of his own home won't have that effect unless you are particularly ruthless with your attacks). My main point is that you almost certainly aren't going to educate them by flaming them, so that is no danger, and yet people use that as reasoning. Scaring them from the game may or may not be a danger depending on their personality, but if there's any chance you might do so then refrain from abusing them by all means.

[nickg1532]

you're right in that the confrontational sh!t-talking types may be a different story. i think these guys are rare though, and the majority of fish are normal, decent people who probably don't deserve the abuse.