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  #1  
Old 08-05-2005, 03:04 PM
frappeboy frappeboy is offline
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Posts: 132
Default Checking 4th when an ace hits

In 7CS4AP Sklansky recommends that if your opponent catches an ace on 4th street you should check behind him.. Here it worked to perfection, unfortunately the villian caught a river ace to beat me.

7 Card Stud High ($5/$10), Ante $0.50, Bring-In $2 (hand converter)

3rd Street - (0.70 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 3: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes___calls
Seat 5: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 7: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds

4th Street - (5.50 SB)

Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___checks

5th Street - (2.75 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___raises
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___calls

6th Street - (6.75 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls

River - (8.75 BB)

Seat 4: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___bets
Hero: 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

Total pot: (10.75 BB)
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  #2  
Old 08-05-2005, 03:41 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 12
Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

[ QUOTE ]
unfortunately the villian caught a river ace to beat me.


[/ QUOTE ]

You really don't know that.. Infact, I think its pretty unlikely. What do you think he figured you for when you 2 bet 3rd? What do you think he figured you for when he raised you on 5th street?
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  #3  
Old 08-05-2005, 04:06 PM
frappeboy frappeboy is offline
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Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

You can check to see if your opponent shuffled by getting the hand history emailed to you.. He definitely caught that ace on the end.
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  #4  
Old 08-05-2005, 04:08 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

[ QUOTE ]
You can check to see if your opponent shuffled by getting the hand history emailed to you.

[/ QUOTE ]

How do you know this?
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  #5  
Old 08-05-2005, 04:12 PM
BeerMoney BeerMoney is offline
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Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

I guess if an emailed HH and one on the hard drive are different, that would probably imply the emailed hand histories are not shuffled?
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  #6  
Old 08-05-2005, 04:16 PM
7stud 7stud is offline
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Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

[ QUOTE ]
In 7CS4AP Sklansky recommends that if your opponent catches an ace on 4th street you should check behind him.. Here it worked to perfection

[/ QUOTE ]
Hmm...I'm not so sure about that. The reason you check behind them is so you don't get checked raised on 5th when the betting limits double. Your check forces a hand like Aces up to quit slow playing and take the lead in the betting on 5th street. As a result, when your opponent leads out on 5th street, you can just call, saving yourself from the check raise and having to put in an extra big bet when you are behind.

In this hand, you checked behind your opponent on 4th, but then he checked again on 5th street. What conclusion can you draw from that? Well, naturally you would assume that you were actually ahead on 4th street when your opponent caught the Ace, and that you ended up giving your opponent a free card, and since you don't want to do that again, you'd better bet. But, it looks like your tricky opponent might have figured out what you were thinking, and he might have decided if he checked again on 5th, you would probably bet, so he check raised you--getting back his missed 4th street bet plus another small bet.

Your hand on 5th street was a pretty obvious two pair(you reraised with a queen up on 3rd street), so when you got checked raised on 5th, it wasn't a good sign. I think if the hand had played out "according to the book", you would have either:

1) lost to Aces up, but saved yourself a small bet(your 4th street check) plus a big bet(avoiding a check raise on 5th) when the Ace led out with Aces up(savings = 1.5 BB), or

2) won the hand when you were ahead with your Queens on 4th and your opponent couldn't draw out on you, and he led the betting from 5th street on or he checked at some point and you took over the lead, with the result being you cost yourself one small bet on 4th when you checked behind him(cost = .5 BB).

The authors never mentioned the possibility you ran across: a tricky opponent that checks again, and when you take the lead, he check raises you. So, you can pencil in a 3rd possibility in the margin next to that passage:

3) tricky opponent checks again when he is leading, and when you bet, he check raises you (cost = .5 BB).

You can see the problem playing against an Ace. They can either decide to lead the betting or slow down at any time, or as you experienced: fake slowing down and check raise instead.
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  #7  
Old 08-05-2005, 04:45 PM
frappeboy frappeboy is offline
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Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

Beer,

Try emailing the hand history in hands where you can tell for sure the guy shuffled, it always emails you the correct order.. I always check after a hand to see and this time all he had was 9s on 5th. The guy was a very weak LAG type player so it makes sense.

When you check 4th it only costs you a fraction of a bet when he doesn't have aces, and it may even make your opponent bluff at you, like in this case, I got an extra big bet in when he had a very weak hand.
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  #8  
Old 08-05-2005, 04:52 PM
Gitz Gitz is offline
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Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: MA
Posts: 80
Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

The villian looks like he won the race that's all. I assume he had J's & 9's till he hit the A on the river. He knew he was behind but he probably was going to do it on 4th but you checked. He either had to check raise to try and steal or drop. He also completed on 3rd to try and win it right there going against a Q. Everything being live he caught and you didn't.

Played it well next time you'll win.

Paul
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  #9  
Old 08-05-2005, 05:59 PM
7stud 7stud is offline
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Default Re: Checking 4th when an ace hits

4) your opponent bluffs at you, like in this case, I got an extra big bet in when he had a very weak hand. (extra winnings = .5 BB) [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

5) (4) + sucks out. [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]
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