Bottom 2 Makes me Sick (occasionally)

MLG · #1 08-01-2005, 07:37 PM

3rd level of the PP Million. I have 2700 after crushing AJ with KJ. 3 limpers and I complete inthe SB with J9o. Flop comes Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]J [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], I have no clubs. I lead for 120 into the 150 pot. EP limper makes it 350 and it folds back around to me. I'm pretty sure I have no good options, so what's my least bad one.

Edit: EP Limper started hand with 2100.

kyro · #2 08-01-2005, 07:43 PM

If you're ahead, it's not by much. And if you're behind, you need a lot of help. If I'm calling, I'm only going any further on a non club/A/K/Q/T/8 turn.

So basically, I can't see how folding can be terrible here.

ThrillFactor · #3 08-01-2005, 07:47 PM

What is EP's stack?

Scary board full of draws and he doesn't appear to be worried about keeping the pot small.

ThrillFactor · #4 08-01-2005, 07:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
If you're ahead, it's not by much. And if you're behind, you need a lot of help. If I'm calling, I'm only going any further on a non club/A/K/Q/T/8 turn.

So basically, I can't see how folding can be terrible here.

[/ QUOTE ]

Are you leading out on a non-scare turn or risking a free card?

If you're raised on a blank turn, what do you do?
If you're called, what's your river plan?

Edit: Hands like this get me in trouble all the time, so I'm mega-curious about this one.

skoal2k4 · #5 08-01-2005, 07:53 PM

There's a lot of hands that fit into this flop that an EP limper will play. I just don't see how you can be ahead most of the time here? A fold isn't bad, but neither is a call necessarily. If he is on a draw, you might get it checked on the turn and you both get a free card. If I call the flop bet, I'm more than likely laying this down to a turn bet UI though. Tough hand and tough situation [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Lloyd · #6 08-01-2005, 08:00 PM

What about checking the flop and seeing the action. If the flop is bet and raised it certainly gives you good information. I think a flop with that texture will almost certainly be raised when led out from the SB. But are you up against top pair, a set, a draw, a slow played overpair? And if it's checked around that gives you good info as well.

skoal2k4 · #7 08-01-2005, 08:03 PM

[ QUOTE ]
What about checking the flop and seeing the action. If the flop is bet and raised it certainly gives you good information. I think a flop with that texture will almost certainly be raised when led out from the SB. But are you up against top pair, a set, a draw, a slow played overpair? And if it's checked around that gives you good info as well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I got nothing wrong with doing that either... I think this is one of those situations where a lot of answers would generally "acceptable"

Iconoclastic · #8 08-01-2005, 08:34 PM

It's a check-fold to a large bet on the Flop and Turn/call small bets, check-call River.

Once you're in the pickle you're in, just Fold.

The reason why being very Tight Passive is best in this situation is because it's the kind of situation where you're either going to win a little or lose a lot due to having the worst position. It's not like you have a set either.

The situation would be completely different if you were on the button, but when you're in EP just get out of there while losing the minimum amount.

Stipe_fan · #9 08-01-2005, 08:36 PM

I am not so sure about checking it. If someone bets, he could have a hand or maybe he is positional betting the flop. I think you need to lead and if you are raised, I know it sounds weak, but you needs to release it. I would hate myself but I think it is the right play.

I don't think a check-raise will accomplish anything so I would definitely rule that out.

locutus2002 · #10 08-01-2005, 08:48 PM

Hero folds, or calls intending to represent the flush.

there are ~40 hands that beat you.
There are ~50 flush draws but only 6 or 7 premium draws that might warrant a raise, and villain would limp in EP PF.

There's the Harrington 10% that villain is making a move. Note that its a very dangerous board for villain to be making a move on.

There are ~28 cards that hero doesn't want to see on the turn including a,k,q,t,8, club, and just as many on the river.

You are not enough ahead of any of the premium draws to get them to fold ATF, and the better hands are likely to call so I think your FE is pretty low here.

In general there are alot of possible hands that make the str8 which gives villain an overwhelming superiority in the range of hands he can raise with versus hero's two pr.

I think if hero wants to play he has to be willing to represent the flush on the turn if a club comes. If you combine this with the chance of hitting a full house, then you might be able to justify calling T230 into a pot of T850.