I May Be a Philosophy Noob, But...

[Jazza]

Who here thinks there is an objective right and wrong, cause I don't

The way I see it they are arbitrary definitions

[rmarotti]

[ QUOTE ]
Who here thinks there is an objective right and wrong, cause I don't

The way I see it they are arbitrary definitions

[/ QUOTE ]

Thread over.

[Jazza]

and just to clarify, i'm talking like morally right and morally wrong, so i'm saying that to murder some one is only right or wrong depending on some arbitrary set of morals, no one out there disputes this?

[cielo]

OK, I'll bite,

Can you explain what it would mean if there were such a thing as morally right and wrong and then show how this is not the case?

Is this a fair question to ask?

cielo

[Jazza]

[ QUOTE ]
Can you explain what it would mean if there were such a thing as morally right and wrong and then show how this is not the case?

[/ QUOTE ]

maybe, this is the best i can do:

some guy claims that and action is morally right if it is doing whatever is best for the greater want of all people

then i say couldn't you just as easily declare that's morally wrong?

i don't know if this is what you meant. but anyway, if you walk up to a rando and say "do you think murder for fun is right or wrong?" most people will say wrong

and i'm curious why these people define right and wrong

[cielo]

[ QUOTE ]


maybe, this is the best i can do:

some guy claims that and action is morally right if it is doing whatever is best for the greater want of all people

then i say couldn't you just as easily declare that's morally wrong?

[/ QUOTE ]

Your hypothetical guy has already assumed some standard of good by saying, the "greater want of all people". I guess the question is what is that greater want, or as Aristotle says, the good is, "that toward which all things aim".

This is called the greatest good, as all actions are thought to aim toward some final end.


[ QUOTE ]
i don't know if this is what you meant. but anyway, if you walk up to a rando and say "do you think murder for fun is right or wrong?" most people will say wrong

and i'm curious why these people define right and wrong

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you mean "why" people define things as right/wrong or "how" they define them as right/wrong?

As for the Why, they could have been taught them, or perhaps thought them out on their own.

I think more importantly is HOW they define things as right or wrong.

For example, I think that my life is an end in itself, that is to say, I do not need to justify doing what I think is best for myself, in terms of not sacrificing myself to others.

So, for me, at this point (as I have not been convinced otherwise) The things that make my life more fulfilled and worth living are good and those that do not are bad. I don't really use the term "evil" because of the connotations it has to Christianity.

I don't know if that made sense, what do you think?

[Jazza]

i think it makes sense

so if i asked you if it is good or bad that some guy on the other side of the world gets tortured and murdered, you'd say neither good or bad because it does not affect you (assuming his murder does not affect you)?

[cielo]

Interesting question,

so the question is, Good for whom?

as well as, Did this guy do anything? Did he say that he would kill his torturer/murderer if he was released?

I think that ethics needs to be looked at on a case by case basis, this does not necessarily imply a relativism. But merely that moral principles should be applied to the specifics of each, for example my questions above.


Back to your hypothetical, lets assume for the sake of argument that the tortured/murdered guy is completely innocent. Is it going to be good or bad for my life if people are allowed to torture/murder others at whim. I think it will be an overall -EV move for me.

A correlary principle to my life being an end in itself is that I must recognize that the lives of others are ends for other people as well.

So, while I can claim a right to my own happiness and fulfilling that, I can claim no right to the life of another, for example, I can't justify torturing/murdering someone who does not pose a threat to my life.

cielo

[spoohunter]

Morality is the most useful lie we have ever told.

[Jazza]

[ QUOTE ]
But merely that moral principles should be applied to the specifics of each, for example my questions above.


[/ QUOTE ]

this is sort of what i am getting at also, i reckon that moral principles and ethics are arbitrary