Lay down or Call down?

[crunchy1]

No great reads on either player - haven't played more than 75 hands with either of them. CO is showing a LAP icon; UTG is a FISH. Both of them are in the 60% VP$IP range.

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is Button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG calls, <font color="#666666">4 folds</font>, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>, <font color="#CC3333">Hero 3-bets</font>, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO caps</font>, Hero calls, UTG calls.

Flop: (13.50 SB) K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, CO calls.

Turn: (8.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
UTG checks, CO checks, <font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">CO raises</font>...

I don't like a turn checkraise (after a PF cap) against 2 opponents when the third flush card hits - this card should be a scare card to him too. He's passive post-flop but, I really feel like I should be calling down. I also still have another player to contend with. What do you do?

[Nick C]

I don't know how LAGgy Villain is preflop, but I'm already not feeling too comfortable (even before the third diamond) with both the king and queen on the board.

Also, a preflop cap followed by a flop check is sort of a standard Party way to play a set.

But, anyway, I'd probably call down, hoping CO has been "trapping" with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or even KQ/K8/Q8 (which would give me a decent number of outs at least).

If by some chance UTG check/3-bet, I think I'd just give up. But I don't really expect him to do that. I think he possibly does have something (such as JT) that cuts into whatever outs I may have at least a little bit, though.

[McGahee]

PF Cap + flop check/call + trapping turn C/R from passive player = I'd be shocked to see anything but KK or QQ.
This looks like such an easy laydown to me but I probably wouldn't be able to make it if I were actually playing.

[thejameser]

i think the default answer for the SS forum is call-down here or you are weak-tight. 3 way pot, capped preflop, i think this is actually a tough situation. it reminds me of a post by GoT back in the old days where he laid down kings getting like, 18-1 on a river call. nice post, i don't know what i would do as i would need to put hand ranges on the CO, but being a passive player showing strength, it usually means you are beat as he will often have what he represents or at least better than one top pair, not always, but usually. scenarios like this are why we use PT, i could see a fold here. not automatic, but i could see the reasoning. i'm going to lunch now, i would like to see some more responses to this thread.

[madscout]

[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably call down, hoping CO has been "trapping" with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or even KQ/K8/Q8 (which would give me a decent number of outs at least).

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt all those hands are in CO's preflop capping range. I think this is a fold, and expect to be shown QQ/KK

[shark6]

This is the kind of board and aggressive betting that should scare a passive player to death. So, if Villian is passive postflop, to me the turn checkraise on 2 players means he has nothing less than AK. And, even with AK I’d expect him to lead or checkraise the flop instead.

I think Villian usually has KK/QQ/KQs or maybe AdKd, but getting fairly good odds to call down makes this a close decision to call the turn raise. However, tipping this to a fold for me is that even if you are ahead on the turn you’ll get outdrawn on the river a fair percentage of the time anyway.

[Nick C]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
I'd probably call down, hoping CO has been "trapping" with A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] or even KQ/K8/Q8 (which would give me a decent number of outs at least).

[/ QUOTE ]

I doubt all those hands are in CO's preflop capping range. I think this is a fold, and expect to be shown QQ/KK

[/ QUOTE ]

I have doubts about some of these hands (the K8/Q8 in particular) too. We don't know how loose-aggressive Villain is preflop, though, so I didn't want to rule them out.

Anyway, Villain's line is a really donk-standard trap line, and I do agree that folding might in fact be best. In any event, I could laugh to myself about how Villain played his KK/QQ with more satisfaction if I in fact did fold the turn instead of calling down.

[madscout]

[ QUOTE ]
even if you are ahead on the turn you’ll get outdrawn on the river a fair percentage of the time anyway.

[/ QUOTE ]

Yes.

[sy_or_bust]

Tricky...you face a strong likelihood of being crushed or sandbagged combined with a flush redraw you don't have. To me, it looks like a realistic best case scenario is when CO holds a pair + A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and UTG has nothing. I think many more instances will have you crushed, drawing to one out or less.

If CO will make this move with the pair + redraw, then I call and plan to call a non-diamond river. This player would need to play hands like KJ[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] this way for me to call. If I think the above is unlikely, I fold.

UTG helps a ton here when you call. If you assume he is always in 2nd or 3rd place when you showdown (i.e. not a threat), you're getting better odds on a calldown.