Position Abuse

rory · #1 07-11-2005, 02:01 PM

Hand #1
Opponent is loose and passive, but is capable of making semi-bluff plays or bluff plays. He is passive in that he value bets very poorly.
I open raise from the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. Opponent cold calls in the BB. Flop is A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. BB checks, I bet, BB calls. Turn is a 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. BB checks, I bet, BB raises, I 3-bet.

Hand #2
Loose, underbankrolled guy I've been running over is the SB in this hand. Has fancy play syndrome a bit, especially against me. I open raise on the button with A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], he cold calls in the SB. Flop is 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. He checks, I bet, he calls. Turn is the T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. He checks, I bet, he raises, I 3-bet.

DMBFan23 · #2 07-11-2005, 02:08 PM

which of these are river value bets and river check behinds?

FWIW I like 2 more than 1, but I'll wait to hear your reasoning

MAxx · #3 07-11-2005, 02:09 PM

These hands don't look like the Rory that used to post here. This looks like somebody else. Why the turn 3bets? Why not let them continue the bluff on the river? Do you acutally think your plays are propper or do you need to go sit in time-out next to Bunky for a little while?

Grisgra · #4 07-11-2005, 02:12 PM

I assume in both cases you check behind on the river unimproved/fold to a turn cap, that in Hand #1 you fold to a river bet, and that in Hand #2 . . . um, I guess you do the same? Obviously (?) the point here is that you want to showdown these hands/punish draws and bluffs, and you can do this against non-maniacs by 3-betting the turn when in position.

I don't know if I like it yet, I just want to make sure I know what's going on [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]. It's the folding to a river SNG in Hand #2 that makes me uneasy.

Danenania · #5 07-11-2005, 02:14 PM

First one is perfect (I assume you check behind on the river). He probably won't 4-bet you even with two pair. This costs the same as calling down but charges club draws or gutshots 1 BB extra. Nice.

Second one is less obvious but also good I think. Once you decide to call down, the 3-bet for free showdown becomes superior for parallel reasons to the first (this time you really want him to fold a bluff).

Thanks for posting these. It's a move I rarely think to use but it has a ton of applicability in these aggressive turn raise happy games.

Digs · #6 07-11-2005, 02:21 PM

I use this move sometimes, although I like it more in 1 than 2.

If this guy is thinking and has been in pots where you've been 3 betting raggedy turns after showing pf strenght I can see him continuing on hand 2 knowing you dont have a 3.

I'm probably just paranoid though [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

Mig · #7 07-11-2005, 02:21 PM

I like hand 1 since you might have the best hand anyway. But I don't see why you raised hand 2... Passive vilain c/r you in a non-drawy board is suspicious, ok it cost you the same if you call to the showdown and you can pop an A-K on the river and charge him one more. Anyway I guess that you fold to a cap in both hand or a donk on the river ?

Danenania · #8 07-11-2005, 02:28 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyway I guess that you fold to a cap in both hand or a donk on the river ?

[/ QUOTE ]

Based on some quick estimations he can't fold to a cap in Hand 1 getting 10 to 1 because there are proportionally so many more combinations of K7/K3 (against which we have 8 outs, which is a lot of outs) compared to combinations of Aces up and sets. The thing to do would be call and fold the river unimproved.

As for a donk bet I think it would be an easy call in Hand 1 and probably a pretty easy fold in Hand 2.

DMBFan23 · #9 07-11-2005, 02:36 PM

[ QUOTE ]
I like hand 1 since you might have the best hand anyway. But I don't see why you raised hand 2... Passive vilain c/r you in a non-drawy board is suspicious, ok it cost you the same if you call to the showdown and you can pop an A-K on the river and charge him one more. Anyway I guess that you fold to a cap in both hand or a donk on the river ?

[/ QUOTE ]

where does it say villain in hand 2 is passive?

Alobar · #10 07-11-2005, 03:38 PM

If in hand 1, he will continue his bluff/semi bluff again at the river, I like just calling the turn c/r and then calling the river. As you make the same or lose the same either way. Also in the event of K7 or A3 it gives you a chance to catch up. Tho if he is passive from a value betting standpoint I suppose with AK on board he isnt likely to cap the turn anyway with those hands, so it doesnt matter.

Hand 2 I like.