Borgata 20/40 Hand, Interesting Turn CR

[AviD]

A hand from this past weekend at the Borgata 20/40. Amidst my cold session, I came across this hand and a pretty nice sized pot and figured with how tight I was playing I'd take a stab at stealing it. Looking for thoughts on the hand and the play.

Table is a mixture of uber loose passives and 1 or 2 loose aggressives.

Main player in this hand is a young asian kid, regular, who is quite an aggressive player and whom I haven't found to be overly creative and seems to oddly fluctuate between calling down when he knows he's beat and making what I consider to be ridiculous folds. My assumption and hope in this hand is that I can push him off his.

Here's how it went down...

I'm dealt A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] in the SB.

Everyone, yes everyone (6 players), limps to Young Asian Kid (YAK) on the button (10th player actually got up for a bathroom break or something but he would have called two cold here) and he raises, I call, BB calls, everyone else calls.

So nine of us to the flop for 18SBs.

Flop is 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Everyone checks to YAK, who pauses momentarily and says "I'll take a shot" and tosses out 4 reds. I contemplated raising here, but feel it won't accomplish anything because all of the LPs behind me are certain to call even a raise with overcards or a T. So I just call (?!?) looking to evaluate the action and see if I can pick up a heart draw on the turn, but more so based on the turn really plan on CRing any "safe" card if it gets checked to YAK again and he bets. And once again, everyone calls.

Onto the turn with 9 players and 27SB (13.5BBs) in the pot.
Turn brings the 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] with a board of 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

Again, checked to YAK who thinks for a few seconds but does not verbalize, looks at the pot like he wants it and quietly but quickly makes two stacks of 4 reds.

I immediately say raise, push out a stack of 20 reds and pull off 4 from the top...

Thoughts thus far?

[sfer]

I think trying to blast out 8 players is futile.

[Jeffage]

I don't mind peeling on the flop since the pot is large, but you're basically looking to catch perfect. When everyone calls on the flop, you should know it's VERY unlikely you will win making a play on the turn. A 10 is not folding in a loose game, an overpair is not folding, a 6 is possible since all those people called the flop. If you won this pot, it was a miracle and DON'T learn from it. Just check and fold the turn.

Jeff

[GreywolfNYC]

[ QUOTE ]
I think trying to blast out 8 players is futile.

[/ QUOTE ]

[MaxPower]

Hopeless.

[dontcrack]

If some of the flop callers are as "uber" passive as you say then I think betting into them is absurd. If they are weak that is one thing but a passive player who has a 10 will probably call you and so will a str8 draw and a flush draw.

Hell, one of the LAGs might even three bet you.

With a pot that size and a board with that texture I would be shocked if you took the pot right there and you will certainly have to bluff again at the river.

My guess is that if some of the players did not hit their hand at the turn, a number of them just picked up more outs to give them the pot if they hit a card at the river.

I'm guessing at least 3 went to the river.

With a game as described, I happily muck the turn when the heart does not fall.

I would LOVE to hear someone say this is a good move and then go on to describe why. I'm all for thinking out of the box but I can't see where the turn CR makes sense.

[scrub]

Tilt.

scrub

[AviD]

OK, it looks unanimous...I'm a fish! [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Results in a minute, first I want to go over a few thoughts...

1) This was relatively early in my session, about 1-2 hour mark, and I had not shown aggression on ANY hands yet. This was a relatively big factor in my "move", as some players were aware of this and some commented on it.

2) I was not on tilt at all (scrub [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]), I had a balanced line of thought in approaching this hand based on the players and specifically the aggressor and my position relative to his.

3) Most of these players will bet their made hands, none are very tricky. My sentiments were that most all of them would call a single bet and a single raise (2 cold) on the flop but probably not on the turn without a made hand or a strong draw.

4) The YAK's flop bet screamed "well if you are going to check to me, I'll take a shot", hell he even verbalized it...and yeah he was serious. When it gets checked to him on the turn, and he looks at the pot like "I want this pot, but really don't want to bet my hand but have to if I want to win it" and bets, I figure I have an excellent chance of pushing him off his overcards.

5) As far as the rest of field, I'm pretty certain they will not call without a 6 and *may* fold a ten considering I haven't played a hand yet and I've now CRed the turn, which looks alot like I have a 6.

6) The key to this hand is my position and the board. I'm in the SB, so I have credibility for having a hand containing a 6. Even the most oblivious players in the 20/40 game will at least *think* about this and consider it before calling with any hand, including hands containing a T. The board is pretty much ragged, there is a turned straight possibility and new flush draw but overall, there aren't many hands they can put me on other than a made straight, a boat, or a 6...again considering I haven't played a hand aggressively (i.e. raised any hand or any street) in nearly 1-2 hours of play. Again, I believe these players were aware of this.


So on with the action...

YAK bets the turn, I raise in the SB and immediately see YAK cast a look of "why the hell did I just bet, I knew that was coming" and hold his cards between his fingers ready to muck them, BB (who is one of the semi LAGs) hesitates and thinks for a second with a look of disgust like he wanted raise but now folds instead...and as he folds a T accidently flips over and is exposed by the dealer. UTG calls 2 cold, the rest fold, and YAK folds.

So its HU to the river, and I am not sure if UTG (who is exceptionally loose and exceptional weak) is on a draw or has a T or a 6 himself. Either way, I have to bet the river and fold to a raise, as he is not capable of bluff raising a river and at that point I'd have to fold. My only chance is to fire again and get him to fold a missed draw, possibly even an A [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]x [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] draw where x is bigger than my 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].

So river is an Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] with a final board of 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

I bet, UTG ponders for a few moments and folds...and the pot is pushed my way.


Now the reason I bring this hand up is because I am wondering if *this* is the kind of "creative" plays I should be making in these type of games when I recognize such an opportunity? I felt I had a solid read on YAK as being weak with overcards and hesitant in his play, and was reasonably sure I could win the pot right there (which at the time was approximately 15BBs) by CRing the turn, but not by CRing the flop.

I was also reasonably confident that those to act behind me really didn't want to call a raise on the turn based on their previous style of play to call any number of flop bets but often give up on the turn when they have nothing. Add that to the fact that many of them would bet but not raise their made hands on any given street, and I was pretty sure no one had a 6 (felt it was unlikely) and I had a decent shot at getting a T to fold.

Clearly it is a raise or fold situation, but if the heart came...I think it suddenly becomes an easy calling situation. So if the turn was different, specifically an overcard to the T I would have folded. Likewise if it were a heart, I would have called to keep other players in those times I hit.

So here I am, at the time feeling good about the play, but felt it was worth posting on here to get humbled by the knowledgeable whom could point out the error of my ways.

So my final question, when do you make a "move" such as this? I had other opportunities in games where I felt I could have raised and won a pot, but didn't and in fact if I had raised...the way the hands worked out I could have won the pot.

I'm trying to find areas to improve my game, and get away from being a "standardized" poker player. Specifically in live, I am trying to use the benefit of live reads and players actions, emotions, reactions, etc to gain an edge.

Was this just simply not an edge to push? Did I really just get lucky in the end?

While I do agree trying to push out 8 players with a raise is fruitless the great majority of the time, how often are you going to have a HUGE pot where you could bluff raise players who seemingly have no hand and no interest in the pot out? If everything is a HU or short handed battle, how often are the pots going to be big enough where you can actually steal one? Chances are in a HU hand or a SHed hand, players are putting in alot of money and determined to get to show down...so bluff raising seems ineffective or at least has to me.

I saw this hand as an opportunity where an entire table passively entered and built a huge pot because of a singular aggressor whom appeared to be uncertain and weak in his actions indicating he *could* be moved off his hand. At the time, it seemed like a prime opportunity to make this move and risk 2BBs to win 15 more. And it worked out as I had hoped in that a better hand (BB with a T) folded as did the aggressor (YAK) and a follow-up bet on the river got potentially a better Ace (or at least some draw perhaps not better) to lay down without a showdown.

Am I dilusional? Was this just a BS FPS type hand? Should I avoid this at all costs?

Note this type of play is VERY rare for me, and in fact, I can't remember doing it previously. At the moment, while thinking through the hand as it played out...this move just "felt right" as wrong as it may have been...I had an instinct and went with it. I felt like an "I can fold and let this pot go, or I can raise with a very good chance of having YAK and everyone behind me fold". It's what I felt, fault or not...so I guess I can't doubt the feeling I can only doubt the long term profitability of such "creative" and "instinctive" moves and if they are even worth taking shots at.

Any additional thoughts would be great.

[dontcrack]

Way to drag the pot.

I cannot see EVER making a play like this. Maybe I'm a weak player but you have to be so sure of your read on 8 players that it does not seem to be worth it.

Even going to the river heads-up, I would think that you have to dodge many cards on the river in order to follow-through with your bluff as the pot was huge and your opponent is making a mistake by folding too much.

I would LOVE to know what hands were folded.

BTW, it does not seem too LAGGY to fold a Ten there. The LAGs I seem to face would three bet ya and call the river. Either my definition of LAG is off or he was a smarter LAG.

NH...you felt solid about your read then made the move. I'm amazed that you could be so sure about your read on 8 players. It seems that regardless of read, the randomness of cards and pot size would make you show down at least pair to drag the pot.

[3rdCheckRaise]

Dude the problem here is that you thinking on a bit different level then the rest of the table. They line on the whole game is "Me have a pair me bet!!" or "Me have a draw me call". Borgata 20 is a one of the most passive games anywhere (most of time). To push someone off the hand,that someone needs to have at least 2 brain cells and those are the people you do not mess around with anyway. There is NO WAY you can push anyone in that game off 77 and you can forget about something like 10 9.