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  #1  
Old 02-27-2005, 03:32 PM
man man is offline
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Default troubling common situations

I just began playing at the 10-handed Party $25 NL tables, and there's a bunch of situations that I keep running into that have caused a pretty big dent in my bankroll. These are probably pretty elementary, but I'm pretty elementary, so bear with me. I don't have the hands memorized, so I'm just gonna give a general outline of each situation. I've been multitabling, so I rarely have reads on the players. (Also, should I stick to one table until I've gotten the hang of things?)

Sitch #1: I get AQs UTG and open raise to 4xBB. Fold to CO/Button, they reraise to 10BB. Fold to me. Every time I call here, it seems like the only "clean" flop for me would be a flush draw, and that I'm easily behind if an A or a Q hits. And of course, I'm out of position. Should I lay it down? Do players at this level reraise with JJ, TT, or 99 often enough for it to be worth a call? Is it even worth a call if so?

Sitch #2: I open limp in MP with some trash like QTos, one late position player calls, and the blinds complete & check. Flop comes QT6 with two spades. Check, check, I bet the pot, LP calls, blinds fold. Turn is a blank, I bet (how much here? Pot? 1/2, 3/4 pot?), LP calls. River is a low spade, I (check?), LP bets 1/2 pot. Easy fold? I find myself paying off a lot in these situations, and it usually makes me feel fishy. (Side question: If the same situation occurs with an apparent straight draw, is my play any different?)

Sitch #3: I feel awkward on all streets during this kind of situation. I get 76os in the BB. Two limpers, SB completes. Flop comes 974 rainbow. Check, I bet (?) 1/2 pot or pot, one caller behind me. Turn is a blank. I bet again (?), he calls. River is a blank. I check (?). Any better way to go about playing this kind of hand?

I feel like my descriptions of the above situations are a little vague, and that I'm not giving you guys enough info. But I don't really have much info to go off of in these situations myself. I appreciate any input.
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  #2  
Old 02-27-2005, 03:39 PM
tbach24 tbach24 is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

[ QUOTE ]
Sitch #1: I get AQs UTG and open raise to 4xBB. Fold to CO/Button, they reraise to 10BB. Fold to me. Every time I call here, it seems like the only "clean" flop for me would be a flush draw, and that I'm easily behind if an A or a Q hits. And of course, I'm out of position. Should I lay it down? Do players at this level reraise with JJ, TT, or 99 often enough for it to be worth a call? Is it even worth a call if so?

[/ QUOTE ]

It depends on how agressive this player is. If he is raising and re-raising a lot of pots, I think calling here is fine. Play very straightforward on the flop with this type of situation. They don't always have to have AK/AA/KK/QQ to re-raise. If they're tight PF, they do and you can muck it.

[ QUOTE ]
Sitch #2: I open limp in MP with some trash like QTos, one late position player calls, and the blinds complete & check. Flop comes QT6 with two spades. Check, check, I bet the pot, LP calls, blinds fold. Turn is a blank, I bet (how much here? Pot? 1/2, 3/4 pot?), LP calls. River is a low spade, I (check?), LP bets 1/2 pot. Easy fold? I find myself paying off a lot in these situations, and it usually makes me feel fishy. (Side question: If the same situation occurs with an apparent straight draw, is my play any different?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't open raise with QTo in MP. You can do it in LP, but in MP I muck this. I usually pay off, too. I suck at the river though.

[ QUOTE ]
Sitch #3: I feel awkward on all streets during this kind of situation. I get 76os in the BB. Two limpers, SB completes. Flop comes 974 rainbow. Check, I bet (?) 1/2 pot or pot, one caller behind me. Turn is a blank. I bet again (?), he calls. River is a blank. I check (?). Any better way to go about playing this kind of hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Check/fold.

A lot of the things you mentioned can be adjusted to different players, but I think that these are pretty good standards.
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  #3  
Old 02-27-2005, 03:43 PM
joewatch joewatch is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

Listen to berge. He's right. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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  #4  
Old 02-27-2005, 09:36 PM
warlockjd warlockjd is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

1 fold

3 ck fold
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  #5  
Old 02-27-2005, 09:47 PM
spoohunter spoohunter is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

Aha! You are having trouble with marginal situations. Here's what I do when on the flop with an "ok" hand like top wair weak kicker, middle pair top kicker, two pair on really bad board, etc.

Bet the pot. If called, check fold.

Now, don't call raises with crap (even good crap like AQ... it's still crap).
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  #6  
Old 02-27-2005, 09:48 PM
Los Feliz Slim Los Feliz Slim is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

An addendum to all the great advice about these situations, remember: sometimes you're going to play your best poker, and lose money. You're correct to raise w/AQs, then you're correct to fold when someone comes over the top. You played it right, and you lost money. Sometimes, you might even be laying down the best hand. You're still playing correctly, and if you keep doing it over the long run, you WILL win. If not, your bankroll can't support where you're playing.

If playing perfectly meant you'd win every time, Phil Hellmuth would be King. Just ask him.
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  #7  
Old 02-27-2005, 09:52 PM
cookperson cookperson is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

you appear to be playing too loose. Remember marginal hands are going to create very tough decisions, decisions you may not be ready for yet, More importantly i think is that you are playing at more then one table. I would suggest that you stick to one table until you get the hang of it. it is imporant to read people and to put them on hands, and you said you can't at multiple tables. I talked to a guy yesterday who has been playing the $5-$10 tables for quite a long time and he never plays at more then two tables.if I wer you i would stick to one table until you got into a rhythm and then move to two.
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  #8  
Old 02-27-2005, 10:47 PM
man man is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

At this point I think that's the healthiest thing for my bankroll, as well as for my play. If only playing one table wasn't as boring as crap.

I'm not sure I understand hand selection issues. I started out playing tight as hell, but I never made much profit. Since then I've loosened up a bit--not counting blinds, I play maybe 25% of hands? (I don't have pokertracker, that's just a guess.) My profits jumped noticably, but that could just be due to natural variation. I mean, I'm never gonna play 87os, but it seems that at loose tables the best thing would be to loosen up your own play. From everything I've read, I know that somehow that's flawed logic. But I don't really understand why. Help me.
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  #9  
Old 02-27-2005, 11:54 PM
Burg Burg is offline
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Default Re: troubling common situations

Sitch #2: I open limp in MP with some trash like QTos, one late position player calls, and the blinds complete & check. Flop comes QT6 with two spades. Check, check, I bet the pot, LP calls, blinds fold. Turn is a blank, I bet (how much here? Pot? 1/2, 3/4 pot?), LP calls. River is a low spade, I (check?), LP bets 1/2 pot. Easy fold? I find myself paying off a lot in these situations, and it usually makes me feel fishy. (Side question: If the same situation occurs with an apparent straight draw, is my play any different?)

Recently I went to a seminar in Denver, CO with Howard Lederer as the speaker. I spoke personally with him about the size of bets that I should be making post flop, and he gave me this advice: You should seldom, if ever be making oversize, or even pot size bets. Why? Because it's just too much. If you get called by any decent/good player and you don't have the absolute nuts at the time, to call a pot size or oversize bet, they have to have a VERY good hand or draw. Remember... you're not playing poker to win the pot, you're playing to win the money! Howard continued with this, a point that he emphasized in his seminar: LEVERAGE. You should be making 50% to 60% of the pot bets frequently, if not always when you make a good draw or have a made hand. When you gain experience and more confindence you'll begin to get a feel for opponents and be able to better get a feel for when you should bet with, for example, a hand like third pair with an overcard kicker. When you use these bets, you put YOUR OPPONENT to the decision. Theoretically, you don't even have to win the pot to win they money, all you have to do is force your opponent to make a bad call, then you've made money.

So in the hand above, I would first bet out about 60% of the pot. Look for a quick call. Does he call immediately? That often indicates a draw, and at that point I would put him on a flush draw. Does he think for awile and then raise? You might be looking at an AQ or trips, but very seldom QQ or 1010. I would probably fold to a significant raise at this point, but I would have to have a great deal of respect for the player. So let's say that he quick called. if you bet 60% of the pot and he called you with only a flush draw, he made a bad call. Does he have implied odds, well probably not. Often times i'll give up the pot if i'm playing against a player who will pay for these draws and a 3rd flush card hits. So a blank falls on the turn.... I'll bet out again with your hand for about 60% of the pot. If he calls again (another bad call) and hits, you might lose the pot, but you've made money in the long run. And on the river, If nothing hits I might make a small value bet, or sometimes try and induce a bluff. If this person is calling with a flush draw and you check to them on the river, they might just go all in trying to bluff too.
Could he have flopped trips and now he's all in on the river? I say no, remember that you bet out on your draws according to the strategy above. Well, if he has picked up on this at all, and most times even if he hasn't, he would most definitely raise the flop!!! Wouldn't you? Against a player that I know bets out a lot, I would raise.

Hope this helps... let me know what you think.

Happy Pokering

Burg
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  #10  
Old 02-28-2005, 09:29 AM
Lawrence Ng Lawrence Ng is offline
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Location: Vancouver BC
Posts: 78
Default Re: troubling common situations

[ QUOTE ]
Sitch #1: I get AQs UTG and open raise to 4xBB. Fold to CO/Button, they reraise to 10BB. Fold to me. Every time I call here, it seems like the only "clean" flop for me would be a flush draw, and that I'm easily behind if an A or a Q hits. And of course, I'm out of position. Should I lay it down? Do players at this level reraise with JJ, TT, or 99 often enough for it to be worth a call? Is it even worth a call if so?

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a common situation all all lvls in the Party NL games. My decision is highly based on my opponent's VPIP and PFR%. Against a tighty, I will fold and not tangle with AQ. Against a 60/15 player - I'm calling. Again, Playerview really helps with the decision making here. Pretty much the looser player is far more likely to have a wider range of hands, and if they have a high WSD rate, you might even get paid off royally. This will never happen with a tight player - most times your gonna lose a big pot or win a small one if you hit your hand.

[ QUOTE ]
Sitch #2: I open limp in MP with some trash like QTos, one late position player calls, and the blinds complete & check. Flop comes QT6 with two spades. Check, check, I bet the pot, LP calls, blinds fold. Turn is a blank, I bet (how much here? Pot? 1/2, 3/4 pot?), LP calls. River is a low spade, I (check?), LP bets 1/2 pot. Easy fold? I find myself paying off a lot in these situations, and it usually makes me feel fishy. (Side question: If the same situation occurs with an apparent straight draw, is my play any different?)

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't play QT offsuit in any position in NL apart from blinds if you can get in free or cheap. But if you do, betting about 3/4 of the pot is correct or standard. However, there are the few opponents in this particular game on Party that will chase no matter what the pot size. If that's the case I over bet it a lot. I make them pay dearly to draw. It's a big mistake on their part and that's what I capitalize on. Sure they get there sometimes, but it's still huge EV for me.

On the river, I think check-calling is correct provided you put your opponent on a draw. Sometimes, you have to make these laydowns. It's a big part of NL and I've done it a lot. If your opponent bets half to a full pot sized bet you have to be very certain that they didn't have a draw. This goes against limit hold'em thinking where calling 1 more BB is correct with top 2. But this is not the case in NL.

[ QUOTE ]
Sitch #3: I feel awkward on all streets during this kind of situation. I get 76os in the BB. Two limpers, SB completes. Flop comes 974 rainbow. Check, I bet (?) 1/2 pot or pot, one caller behind me. Turn is a blank. I bet again (?), he calls. River is a blank. I check (?). Any better way to go about playing this kind of hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

I'd do this only occasionally for advertising value not to look like a total rock who only bets TPTK or better. But if met with confrontation, I will usually fold. Remember it's for advertising value really. 90% of the time, I check fold this very marginal holding.

Hope this helps.

Lawrence
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