First post - Don't go easy on me

[moose47]

I've been lurking for a while and I just wanted to say that this forum has been an invaluable asset to my game. I suppose it is time to come out of hiding though....

UTG is a really solid player. 18/2/1.7 through about 330 hands. The only hands I've seen him raise pre-flop are AA, KK, and AK. I have no reads on MP2 so at this level I just assume he is a fish until shown otherwise.

PokerStars 0.02/0.04 Hold'em (7 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is BB with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
<font color="#CC3333">UTG raises</font>, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, MP2 calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Button calls, <font color="#666666">1 fold</font>, Hero calls.

Ok, so UTG's raise (and the fact that it's just a 97s) tells me the flop will have to hit me really hard but getting 7.5:1 I still call right?

Flop: (8.50 SB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(4 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#CC3333">MP2 raises</font>, Button folds, Hero calls, UTG calls.

I know that if I check UTG will bet so I figure I may as well be the one to do it. Now when I'm raised is this a situation where I 3-bet to pump up my draw? I would almost always 3-bet a flush draw here which makes my call a little odd.

Turn: (7.25 BB) 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets</font>, UTG calls, MP2 calls.

I'm going to guess that checking would have been correct here. I know I'm still behind and I'm really not sure what I was trying to accomplish by betting.

River: (10.25 BB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, UTG checks, MP2 checks.

Pretty standard I think.

Final Pot: 10.25 BB

[topspin]

Fold preflop, especially against someone with a PFR of 2% over 300+ hands.

The flop is an excellent spot to check-raise. Betting into the preflop raiser is pretty bad; you're giving him the chance to raise and blow the field away.

Check/call turn, check/fold river.

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Fold preflop, especially against someone with a PFR of 2% over 300+ hands.

The flop is an excellent spot to check-raise. Betting into the preflop raiser is pretty bad; you're giving him the chance to raise and blow the field away.

Check/call turn, check/fold river.

[/ QUOTE ]

[jskills]

Not sure about calling the preflop raise with 97s.

I like the call on the flop, bet and raised is fine for your flush draw at that point.

I see a value bet on the river that was missed here?

[bigmac366]

i think your preflop call is fine. on the flop, others have told you to go for a checkraise and trap the field for two, i agree with this because completing your str8 is virtually your only way of winning. wish a strong draw like this you want to get as much money in as you can from everyone while your pot equity is still high. around 35% i believe. the situation would be different if you had overcards and an open ended straight draw though. you could then bet into the preflop raiser and let him raise the field, thus clearing up your overcard outs.ex.(KQ on a TJ4 flop). check call the turn. check fold the river. hope they both showed you unimproved AK high.

[Goon2]

I agree that you must fold pre-flop. A very tight preflop raiser raised UTG. From UTG, a player with 18/2 stats likely indicates AA-JJ, AKs-AQx. Fold.

[Shillx]

Check/raising the flop is honestly nothing short of awful. Don't do it. The correct line is to check and call on the flop. When we check/raise, we are getting thin value if everyone calls. If we get 3-bet and people fold out, we are losing value. Even if it works, what are we going to do on the turn when we miss? If we check, it gives our hand away. If we bet, we risk getting raised. Use fancy plays with draws when you are IN POSITION. This way you can get a free card. Out of position, check/raising a straight draw is just bad poker with 4 people in the por.

So we check/call the flop. Now lets say the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes on the turn. We check/call again. However let's say that the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] does. Who is going to put us on a straight? We can can get a sweet check/raise in on the turn when we have the nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

So the play to to check/call on the draw. Check/raise with a straight. The flop bet is counter-productive no matter how you look at it.

Brad

[dauler]

[ QUOTE ]
when you are IN POSITION

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to check raise in position, if there's ever a good spot to check raise it's when you're out of position.

[Shillx]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
when you are IN POSITION

[/ QUOTE ]

It's hard to check raise in position, if there's ever a good spot to check raise it's when you're out of position.

[/ QUOTE ]

I said use fancy plays in position. Check/rasing this flop (which others have suggested) is bad advice.

Brad

[Catt]

[ QUOTE ]
Check/raising the flop is honestly nothing short of awful.

[/ QUOTE ]

It may not be the best line depending on the game, but calling it nothing short of awful is going way overboard here.

[ QUOTE ]
If we get 3-bet and people fold out, we are losing value.

[/ QUOTE ]

True. And this causes me to reconsider the C/R line. But getting 3-bet here is not very common at all at a Party 1/2 table on a flop like this with the preflop action. Even someone holding QQ often fails to 3-bet this flop on Party 1/2.

[ QUOTE ]
Even if it works, what are we going to do on the turn when we miss? If we check, it gives our hand away. If we bet, we risk getting raised.

[/ QUOTE ]

We check-call on the turn when we miss.

[ QUOTE ]
So we check/call the flop. Now lets say the 2 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] comes on the turn. We check/call again. However let's say that the 5 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] does. Who is going to put us on a straight? We can can get a sweet check/raise in on the turn when we have the nuts. [img]/images/graemlins/cool.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]

We can do a very similar thing on the river if we C/R the flop and don't get 3-bet. In fact, we can do it on the turn when we hit and then still bet out the river. If we miss the turn and check / call, but then hit on the river, we can almost surely pull off the same sweet C/R on the river when more players are likely to call a river bet.

C/R'ing the flop and check-calling the turn when we miss will not give our hand away to the vast majority of players at 1/2 (and certainly not enough for them to get scared if a 5 falls on the river and we "suspiciously" check -- true, once we C/R after the 5 falls, there is more risk that players realize what we now have -- but honestly, many of them are calling a riase on the river even if they're 99% sure we rivered a straight).

[ QUOTE ]
The flop bet is counter-productive no matter how you look at it.

[/ QUOTE ]

A flop bet or a flop C/R is counter-productive only if it drives people out. I dislike the lead bet with the PF raiser on Hero's left because of the risk of facing all with 2 cold. I don't think the C/R presents the same risk at 1/2 -- there is generally not enough aggression among typical 1/2 players to think a 3-bet is a significant risk. In fact, I think most typical 1/2 players, even with a strong hand like QQ on this flop, just call a check-raise and mistakenly "wait until the turn with big bets to get my value."

In sum, the decision to go for a C/R or C/C on the flop is, at this level, a very close call and dependent on table reads, IMHO.

EDIT: Thought this was a Party 1/2 game. Don't know if I feel the same about a 0.02/0.04 game.