QJo - middle pair heads up - Page 2

Hack · #11 12-07-2004, 11:12 PM

When do you play it, Entity? I will play it from the CO, button, SB, and BB, obviously, but if it is raised before it gets to me, I will fold it even in the BB. Is this correct?

And if it's not raised when I get this in the SB or BB should I raise with it after a lot of limpers or just complete/check? I know that big offsuit hands don't play well multiway, but if everyone is already in the pot I am not getting anyone to fold.

QJ suited on the other hand, I will limp with in early position and raise with in late-middle position if it hasn't been raised yet. Is this correct?

Shillx · #12 12-07-2004, 11:17 PM

According to Poker Room, QJo has marginal positive value. I never played it under my previous playing style, but now I'm trying to find some spots where it might be profitable. Blinds and late position come to mind. It's a good hand to steal with, otherwise you should avoid it in raised pots.

Shill

Hack · #13 12-07-2004, 11:19 PM

How about it in an unraised pot, from the CO, button, or blinds. Should I limp in with it even though these are medium offsuit cards?

btspider · #14 12-07-2004, 11:27 PM

here's one example i had recently. postflop may be interesting too. the river didn't really change anything. i was planning to raise anyway.

villian was 65 VPIP and 1.67 AF (pretty high for that VPIP).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between SB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (10.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB has 5c 5d (two pair, fives and twos).
Hero has Jh Qs (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.50 BB.

Entity · #15 12-07-2004, 11:29 PM

[ QUOTE ]
here's one example i had recently. postflop may be interesting too.
villian was 65 VPIP and 1.67 AF (pretty high for that VPIP).

Party Poker 2/4 Hold'em (9 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is CO with J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
2 folds, MP1 calls, 2 folds, Hero raises, 1 fold, SB calls, 1 fold, MP1 calls.

Flop: (7 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 players)
SB bets, MP1 folds, Hero calls.

Turn: (4.50 BB) T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

River: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Final Pot: 10.50 BB
Main Pot: 10.50 BB, between SB and Hero. > Pot won by Hero (10.50 BB).

Results in white below: 
SB has 5c 5d (two pair, fives and twos).
Hero has Jh Qs (two pair, queens and jacks).
Outcome: Hero wins 10.50 BB. 

[/ QUOTE ]
spider,

You were raising this river even if it were a blank, right?

Rob

Entity · #16 12-07-2004, 11:30 PM

[ QUOTE ]
When do you play it, Entity? I will play it from the CO, button, SB, and BB, obviously, but if it is raised before it gets to me, I will fold it even in the BB. Is this correct?

And if it's not raised when I get this in the SB or BB should I raise with it after a lot of limpers or just complete/check? I know that big offsuit hands don't play well multiway, but if everyone is already in the pot I am not getting anyone to fold.

QJ suited on the other hand, I will limp with in early position and raise with in late-middle position if it hasn't been raised yet. Is this correct?

[/ QUOTE ]
It's rare that I play it anymore. Mostly I play it for its high card value when I have position on weak limpers, and I'll play it for a raise then. Otherwise the SB, BB (of course, but never for a raise) and occasionally the Button.

It's just a hand I hate in general. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Rob

SlantNGo · #17 12-07-2004, 11:30 PM

Were you planning to call down all the way unimproved? I would have either raised this flop or the turn, unless SB has shown a tendency to bet out then fold to a raise. Your hand is too strong to be calling down.

EDIT: I see that you were planning to raise the river anyways. My mistake. However, I still think raising on the turn is better. If he bets out the turn again, he's most likely got something he'll want to go to showdown with, so I pop him there and probably release to a 3-bet.

Shillx · #18 12-07-2004, 11:30 PM

Very well played. I wager that lots of people will tell you to raise the flop. They are wrong.

Shill

Entity · #19 12-07-2004, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Were you planning to call down all the way unimproved? I would have either raised this flop or the turn, unless SB has shown a tendency to bet out then fold to a raise. Your hand is too strong to be calling down.

[/ QUOTE ]
You might want to look into this line HU on drawless boards. Call flop, call turn, raise river. Bet if you are ever checked to. Obviously raising the turn is fine against an opponent who will call down, but the line I suggested (and spider seemed to be taking) nets the most from an opponent who will fold a stupid bluff.

Rob

Entity · #20 12-07-2004, 11:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Very well played. I wager that lots of people will tell you to raise the flop. They are wrong.

Shill

[/ QUOTE ]
I think raising the turn might've been OK against this opponent.

Rob