Am I drawing dead?

[TheWorstPlayer]

This spot sucks but I think you are too short to get away with the bad player padding the pot. I probably bet 50 and hope he looks me up with whatever he has. Obviously make the crying call on a push. This is a pretty tough hand, though. With more room to play, I would lead the turn. But with these stacks, it is so tough. I might have led the turn for $50 and folded to a push assuming I'm drawing dead. I'm not sure, though. This is just a very tough hand with these stacks. I'm not sure there is a good line which doesn't commit you here. I mean, if he bet $40 on the turn, would you call? Then are you going to fold on the river when you make a hand? Obviously not. But his bet of $20 kinda reeks more than a bet of $40 would? I think if you can KNOW that he only makes that weak turn bet with a full house, just fold the turn. If he can make it with anything else, then you have to go broke on the river.

[soah]

You would bet the turn with king high into a dry side pot? Is that just to prevent him from making a big bet against us, or am I just too sleepy to figure out what you're talking about?

[TheWorstPlayer]

It's not yet a dry side pot. And if shortie calls and biggie folds I'm really liking our chances. It may clean up a K or a Q and we have tons of equity heads up in what was a three way pot.

[soah]

Yeah, I'm definitely too sleepy to continue posting anything strategy-related for now.

[PokerFink]

Thanks for the comments everyone.

I'm intrigued by TWP's idea to bet the turn. The problem I see with betting $50 there is that it doesn't really represent a boat. Did I really check/call twice with a set/2p on the flop and then suddenly fire out $50 with a boat on the turn? That makes no sense. I'm not sure what a $50 bet represents, but the only thing it folds out is probably AJ or J8, and I want those to stick around since even my K/Q are clean against them.

Results

I bet $50 on the river and got a call, which made me very happy.

UTG has Q9 for the flopped straight, CO has QT for trips and MHIG.

Considering what they held I pretty much played it perfectly, but my line is awful against JT since it's going to cost me all my chips when the club hits.

[Side Note]

"Drawing dead" is one of my favorite poker phrases. I'm not sure if everyone has thought about this or not, but it has a fun second meaning besides the normal "no card in the deck will help you". When you have say five outs you are "drawing to hit five outs." When you're drawing dead, you're often "drawing to go broke." In other words, you're drawing to a certain number of cards that will break you if they hit. If UTG holds JT, I'm drawing to 13 cards that will break me. I'm literally drawing to become dead. Hence the phrase, "He was drawing dead and he got there."

[/Side Note]

[TheWorstPlayer]

Well, as I said, with these stacks I don't really like betting the turn because even if biggie pushes, you're getting pretty good odds on a pretty big draw and does he REALLY only do that with a full house? Meh. But with deeper stacks, where even if he smooth calls the turn with a full house, you will be able to get away after value betting the river, then I like it. I like it because what I don't want to happen is to have biggie check and then shortie push and then I call and then it is PAINFULLY obvious that I have a draw and then I will never get paid by UTG and I will be sandwiched and UTG can blast over the top because it is clear that I have nothing and he can get me out with his middle pair or whatever the hell he might have and take his chances against the short stack and that will just suck for me. Also, it will be very hard for him to raise even with a straight on the turn if stacks are very deep because he has to worry about getting stacked by a boat (say, bottom two pair on the flop). Once you check the turn, it is so obvious that you are drawing, I don't like it at all.

Another devious play that I just thought of, actually, that you could have used on this hand is to bet something like 12 on the turn which may freeze up biggie or may also get him to call thinking that he will re-raise once shortie pushes but not realizing that shortie's raise is too small to reopen the betting. I have seen stupider things happen. Obviously against decent opponents I won't usually take that line. I would be more likely to actually bet $8 with a full house or something against good opponents. Whatever. There are obviously lots of options and I am now rambling. But basically your line says DRAW all over it and I would definitely price you out on the turn if I were biggie with a straight. Tough spot, though, and not much you can do about it. I think check and call something small or just fold to something big is not a bad line.