10/20 Padooki Hand : Breaking Point

[GuyOnTilt]

BTW, I refuse to spell the game the Korean way since the game isn't Korean and this is the way I've been spelling it for a long time, so yeah. I don't care what the rooms say; I'm right, they're wrong. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

Super good game like always. We're 5-handed and I'm UTG with 4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. I raise, CO folds, loose draw-happy Button calls, SB folds, BB decent playing who is trying to play well but failing in a lot of aspects calls.

BB takes 1, I take 1, Button takes 2.

I draw 9 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] [4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

BB checks, I bet, Button calls, BB calls.

BB takes 1, I take 1, Button takes 1.

I draw Q [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] [4 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]2 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

BB checks, I bet, Button calls, BB raises. I call, Button calls.

BB stands pat, I take 1, Button takes 1.

So far very straightforward (at least I think/hope). But I'm wondering where the breaking point is here with my line on 3rd. If I hit a 4card J, do I take the same line? How should I differ if I had drawn a T/9/8? I don't think BB has enough experience in this game to be detached enough to break a J7 or T7 here. How does that impact things with those hands? What if we thought he was capable of breaking those type of hands?

I really would like to get some discussion on this game going. Even if you don't have any significant experience at Padooki or don't think you're qualified or whatever. Who cares. I'm a noob here too so let's get some discussion going and make some progress.

Still feeling around...

GoT

[callydrias]

I'm a newb, but I'll reply in an attempt to spark discussion. I signed up to Doyle's Room today just so I could try this game out. So far I like, but it's been micros only. </disclaimer>

I would break a 4 card J here. Maybe a T too - is that weak? The EV of standing pat and check/calling with an 8 or 9 I think is greater than breaking even though BB thinks he's strong enough to check-raise two opponents. It would be nice to see Padooki Stove suddenly appear right now.

I would definitely like to hear more opinions.

[goofball]

Since you're drawing so smooth under the Q I think you definietly break that. (I'm just going to write some things that may be obvious but will help me think it out). The BB 100% of the time here has a 4 card hand and he checkraised the field so it's probably decent. I feel like it's most likely to be in the 8/9 range. If he made some crappy 4 card hand would he just checkcall you down? I don't kjnow. I see this all the time from bad 2-7 players, they make a super rough 9 or 8 and then just checkcall, standing pat from there. I'd draw the line, since you're so smooth underneath at an 8. I'd keep the 8 pitch the 9. As a side note, if you have a 4 card QJA2 here are you just folding? I would think so.

I don't think 3betting even if he would break a good J or T is a good idea since we want to take the last draw. THe hand to consider 3betting with is a QJ or something where if he 4bets we can just throw our hand away.

Are we assuming he's not thinking on a high enough level to c/r with a pair or K trying to get us to break a marginal made hand?

[goofball]

where are you playing these games?

[Chris Daddy Cool]

you're drawing way too smooth to not break here. my cut off point would be a ten, i think. but i don't really have enough experience in this game to really know for sure.

[timprov]

It's all player-dependent, of course. I've run into a few players who draw to, and bet the crap out of, any badugi. Against them I'm keeping a jack here. Against a rockish player I'm going ahead and folding most hands.

The main hole in these games is people calling and drawing against four-card hands when they don't have odds, which is almost always. You're getting 8:1 here, which means you need five outs to call. Thus he needs an eight on average for a call and draw to be profitable here. Against most tight players you're not going to get that. He's going to have a seven or better much more often than a nine or worse.

[GuyOnTilt]

[ QUOTE ]
It's all player-dependent, of course. I've run into a few players who draw to, and bet the crap out of, any badugi. Against them I'm keeping a jack here. Against a rockish player I'm going ahead and folding most hands.

The main hole in these games is people calling and drawing against four-card hands when they don't have odds, which is almost always. You're getting 8:1 here, which means you need five outs to call. Thus he needs an eight on average for a call and draw to be profitable here. Against most tight players you're not going to get that. He's going to have a seven or better much more often than a nine or worse.

[/ QUOTE ]
I think you're overestimating his handrange here. I just drew 1 and it is pretty obvious I have a very good 3card hand. There's no reason to think I hit and there's no reason to think I wouldn't continue betting my 3card 4 or 3 here if I didn't hit. I don't see any opponent, no matter how rocky (though I've come across nobody even close to tight, much less rock'ish, in these online games so far) check-calling an 8 here. I think almost all the opponents I've played against online would either bet or c/r any 4card hand up thru a T here for sure. I can see some betting out or check-calling with worse ones though.

Also, I'm getting 9.5:1 here to call since Button will always overcall and never 3bet. I very easily have more than 4 outs on average here even with the 3rd player drawing with me, so I cannot fold a draw this smooth.

GoT

[CurryLover]

I have no experience playing limit padooki. We only play PL padooki in the UK, and have a slightly different set of rules for hand rankings. So please take that into consideration when reading my opinion.

I think most experienced padooki players in England would say that an 8 padooki is the worst padooki than you can feel relatively confident with. That does not mean that you are not passing 7s or 6s at times, and sometimes you may be raising with 9s, Ts or even Js - it is situational of course. However, an 8 is the 'benchmark', or starting point, for making decisions based on general considerations.

I would definitely choose to stand pat in the hand you mentioned if I had made an 8 padooki rather than a Q. And I would be re-raising with a 7 or better. I'd also probably stand pat on a 9, but might well break a T. It is all read dependent of course, but I'm just talking about what my instinct tells me based on general considerations - and probably having a lot more experience of padooki (albeit in a slightly different format) than most US players.

There is of course the possibility that you can re-raise him with your Q to try to make him break a J or T padooki, but you've already mentioned that you don't think you can persuade him to do that.

I have no mathematical or statistical reason for thinking this, it is just experience, but I get that slight 'out of line' feeling whenever I'm playing a 9 padooki, and feel that I'm usually on solid ground with a 7. I can't put it into words any better than that, but if you're looking for a 'breaking point' then start with an 8 and adjust up or down according to the situation. In this case you have been betting throughout but still taking a card. The BB has no reason to be sure that you have even made a 4 card padooki yet. For this reason, he may very well go for a check raise with a 9, T or even a J. So I'd adjust the line upward and would stand pat on a 9 but seriously consider breaking a T.

I've just re-read my post and it's not very coherent. I've only just got out of bed and my head is fuzzy, so I'm not at my most succinct. So, to summarise my point, a good rule of thumb is to think of an 8 padooki as the 'break even' hand based on general considerations. Then you adjust up or down depending on all the relevant factors in that specific hand. It would be a 'good judgement call' to break or pass an 8 in the games I play in, but it would also be a good judgement call to stand pat on a T.

[GuyOnTilt]

Hey CurryLover,

Awesome. Thank you for posting. I've played padooki (very, very little) with the alternate hand rankings that you mention until the last few days, so I'm still adjusting to that. A couple observations:

You mention you only play PL. I don't know for sure, but I would think that this form of Padooki would lead to stronger hands making it to showdown when pots are actually played on later streets. So, strictly speaking, your general area of a 4card 8 might be affected accordingly. Un-strictly speaking, there's going to be less drawing in that game, and thus more bluffing, and thus more calling down with weaker 4card hands (or so I would think; again, no experience), so there's that. Any merit, or no? Or do you not have enough limit experience to be able to say really?

In my experience in this game (much less than yours, I'm sure), which has been mostly limit, generally I would draw that comfort line you talk about around an 84 if I had to set it specifically. I definitely don't feel comfortable with weaker 8's a lot of time and often not even weaker 7's. Like you said though, other times I feel confident in a 9 or sick about a 6 or 7. In limit you don't toss end up tossing 6's though, at least not very often. I can't see myself ever doing it right now, but two years ago I probably couldn't see myself mucking an underboat HU either and now I know there are times for it so who knows. I can definitely see how it could come up in a PL game.

I thought a bit more about the original hand. These online games right now are almost entirely full of players who seem to be brand new to the game and just plain bad, and by far the way in which they are most bad is that they overvalue their hands. From their starting hand selection to their draws on all streets to showdown, they think their hands are playable or decent or not that bad or whatever, when in fact they virtually always hold less value than they're giving them. Having said that, I think I'm leaning toward 3betting with 7, calling and standing with a T, and breaking a J in this specific spot against this general type of opponent. The only thing other possible options I can see right now are possibly breaking a T and standing with a 9 or raising with an 8. The fact that the player behind me sucks so bad I would not be very surprised if he called 2 more and drew combined with the probability of the raiser having a 4card 8 or worse. It happens very consistently in the games I've been playing in these spots on 2nd and 3rd, so I think it's at least decently close there. I don't know how close 'cause I haven't done any math beyond very basic stuff with this game, but I plan on going more in-depth soon.

Anyway, rambling now. I'm going to sleep. More padooki tomorrow. Woot!

GoT