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  #11  
Old 10-28-2005, 12:37 AM
SammyKid11 SammyKid11 is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

This is one of those plays where I go by feel and, if possible, reads. If I know I'm playing against a true donkey who's likely to call me down with AJ or 88, then sure, I'm pushing. If I don't know...sometimes I still push a hand like this.

I do think there is some metagame value to it as, even as low as the 22's, I've definitely noticed having a lot more FE when I raise big and show down big hands a couple of times.

In fact, I think QQ is the perfect hand with which to pull this maneuver. With JJ or lower you're not as confident in your hand being best or having huge odds against a villain even when it is best. With AA-KK there's so much value out of playing this a little slower, it seems hard to do unless you're facing a bit larger raise from a more believable position.

But with QQ...I dunno, I like this move. A lot of times you'll pick up 4xBB or so, a lot of those times you'll actually save yourself from going bust with your QQ, you eliminate positional disadvantage, and many times you'll get called by hands that you're absolutely crushing, plus the end-game "respect" factor that some of your later hands will have (as I'm definitely showing them my queens after making a move like this).

Good play, OP.
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  #12  
Old 10-28-2005, 12:40 AM
bones bones is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
Why make a move where the guy basically HAS to play bad for you to make money?

[/ QUOTE ]

Cause that's how you make money playing poker?
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  #13  
Old 10-28-2005, 12:44 AM
jeffraider jeffraider is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

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[ QUOTE ]
Why make a move where the guy basically HAS to play bad for you to make money?

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Cause that's how you make money playing poker?

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I make money by playing better than my opponents, not depending on them to be drooling retards praying that they pay off my massive overbet.
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  #14  
Old 10-28-2005, 01:16 AM
jeffraider jeffraider is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
This is one of those plays where I go by feel and, if possible, reads. If I know I'm playing against a true donkey who's likely to call me down with AJ or 88, then sure, I'm pushing. If I don't know...sometimes I still push a hand like this.

I do think there is some metagame value to it as, even as low as the 22's, I've definitely noticed having a lot more FE when I raise big and show down big hands a couple of times.

In fact, I think QQ is the perfect hand with which to pull this maneuver. With JJ or lower you're not as confident in your hand being best or having huge odds against a villain even when it is best. With AA-KK there's so much value out of playing this a little slower, it seems hard to do unless you're facing a bit larger raise from a more believable position.

But with QQ...I dunno, I like this move. A lot of times you'll pick up 4xBB or so, a lot of those times you'll actually save yourself from going bust with your QQ, you eliminate positional disadvantage, and many times you'll get called by hands that you're absolutely crushing, plus the end-game "respect" factor that some of your later hands will have (as I'm definitely showing them my queens after making a move like this).

Good play, OP.

[/ QUOTE ]

I was thinking that if there's enough decent players at the table to reap any sort of metagame benefit, then there's not enough terrible players who will give this move any kind of action.

Also, good players who may notice you making this play and understand the message aren't the ones who you're trying to send the message to anyways, because good players are playing tight enough early and loose enough late that it will probably never be a factor.
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  #15  
Old 10-28-2005, 01:35 AM
bones bones is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

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I was thinking that if there's enough decent players at the table to reap any sort of metagame benefit, then there's not enough terrible players who will give this move any kind of action.


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I'm not pushing into the mean calling range of the table. I'm pushing into a donk who min-raised a limper.

And I think you're overestimating the "good" 33ers. These guys aren't Ivey and Brunson. They aren't peering into my soul. The extent of their observation is likely to be "Wow, that's a big overbet from the blind against a min raise." And I'd be shocked if these kinds of observations don't slow down good players a little. I know I'm much less likely to push into a maniac than I am against a tightish, conservative player.

As I've mentioned before, this is not my default line, simply a rare play that I made because certain factors came into play.

Thanks for the input.
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  #16  
Old 10-28-2005, 01:54 AM
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
Do you typically make 25BB pushes with QQ-AA?

You guys must hate money to like this line.

[/ QUOTE ]

I've done it quite a bit, and been called by hands that I crush quite a bit. I once played a bunch of SNGs using The System as a bit of an experiment, and found out that a lot of people out there will call with terrible hands at the beginning levels.
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  #17  
Old 10-28-2005, 02:01 AM
bigt439 bigt439 is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Here it is: This move folds most hands that your QQ will crush here. The amount of times you get called by 88 or whatever isn't going to make up for it. Why make a move where the guy basically HAS to play bad for you to make money?

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Here it is: you overestimate the donks.

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Metagame considerations at the 33's barely exist. And if metagame was a good reason for doing anything, this wouldn't be the place to do it. I don't think your opponents will relate level 2 play to level 5 bubble play the way you are hoping they will. I really think you're overestimating both how much your opponents think and how much this play would do for your image if they were thinking players. You typically don't want to be thought of as crazy or push happy in a sng anyways.

Also I don't love the push. I mean it's fine, but if you play well postflop (which you may or may not, that's where discretion comes in), I think you can make a smaller raise and play out the pot.
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  #18  
Old 10-28-2005, 02:11 AM
mlagoo mlagoo is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

i will say that this looks like a lot either FPS or "LPS" (lazy player syndrome). this happens to me when I just don't really feel like screwing around after reraising and dealing with a K-high flop. usually i'm drunk.

while i don't think this is -EV, I think it probably isn't as +EV as just making a standard reraise here (something like 180, I guess). I do agree that you'll find a call here fairly often with 99-JJ, but I think, more often than not (and maybe, you know, 10x more often or whatever it would be to make this play not optimal), you will just get whats in the pot, which isnt too much.
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  #19  
Old 10-28-2005, 02:30 AM
rbear rbear is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

every time i see nutz real big on low tables (usually MTT qualifiers) I see him open push first in pot 1010-KK, and may get nothing, may double up... Haven't seen it enough to know +/-EV over a large sample, but... he must be doing it for a reason. Sometimes massive overbets look weak and payoff huge
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  #20  
Old 10-28-2005, 02:50 AM
bawcerelli bawcerelli is offline
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Default Re: $33- Overbetting from the blinds

since minraises are usually weak i think you're better off repopping to about 160 here and hope to get him committed. though in other situations i do like the massive overbet, and find it works rather well.
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