Call Downs

rory · #1 10-04-2005, 12:43 PM

I am posting this because I didn't really think anything of them when they happened, but when I went through my hand histories for the night, I wondered. Especially when I saw what it lead to.

Villan was pretty loose, even for a 3 handed game. He was also very aggressive postflop and on the flop, but he also had been hitting everything over the 40 hands we played together. I had just folded twice in 3-way pots with him, after I had nothing on the flop and the action was such that he couldn't be bluffing.

I start to get paranoid about getting shots taken at me if I've been folding a bunch playing short, so I call down more liberally. This is sort of automatic for me now, but should it be? Here's an example:

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (3 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is BB with A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Button raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, Button calls.

Flop: (6.50 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero bets, Button raises, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

Here is another one, except with K high. The villan in this hand had been fairly aggressive and capable of bluffing the whole way with nothing. We had recently had a few pots where I called a flop bet and folded on the turn.

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (4 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is UTG with J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
Hero raises, 2 folds, BB calls.

Flop: (4.50 SB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero raises, BB 3-bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.25 BB) 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.25 BB) 5[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 9.25 BB

And here is my last hand of the session, where I call down with almost no hope of winning:

Party Poker 20/40 Hold'em (3 handed) internettexasholdem.com

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
Hero raises, SB 3-bets, 1 fold, Hero caps, SB calls.

Flop: (9 SB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero raises, SB calls.

Turn: (6.50 BB) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets, SB raises, Hero calls.

River: (10.50 BB) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (2 players)
SB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 12.50 BB

My call down standards get progressively worse if I have been folding a lot to aggression. What happens is I play a hand like the last hand and realize what has happened and I quit. But should I be quitting far before the last hand? What do you think about the first two?

cartman · #2 10-04-2005, 01:12 PM

Hand 1: looks perfect to me. Would you have folded if another heart hit?

Hand 2: I think the turn call is close but probably fine, particularly if you think he would never play a 2 this way. Only you can know if the river call is good because it is a pure judgment call on how often he went crazy with a draw or overcards on the flop.

Hand 3: Unless he's a maniac, I would definitely fold to the turn checkraise. You have communicated to him in no uncertain terms that your hand is strong and he seems wholly unconcerned.

[ QUOTE ]

My call down standards get progressively worse if I have been folding a lot to aggression.

[/ QUOTE ]

If you mean that you intentionally loosen up your call down standards when you have been folding a lot to aggression because you know that your opponents will respond by being more aggressive with more marginal holdings, then I think it is fine.

If you mean that without realizing it you loosen up your calling down standards too much because you start to get paranoid or emotional, then I think a better approach would be to leave your standards unchanged until you catch your opponent increasing his aggression with marginal holdings and then respond accordingly by loosening up your calling down standards.

[ QUOTE ]
What happens is I play a hand like the last hand and realize what has happened and I quit. But should I be quitting far before the last hand?

[/ QUOTE ]

Table image aside, I think quitting is only the solution if you that the realization that are making some poor decisions is indicative that you will continue to make poor decisions. For some this is a virtual certainty. For others, the realization that they made one or more mistakes that they should never have made may serve to get their attention to the extent that they will actually play better from that point forward than they would have if they hadn't realized the mistake to begin with.

Cartman

Surfbullet · #3 10-04-2005, 03:42 PM

Hey Rory,

The first hand looks okay to me. I'd fold if a heart hit, but you know whether or not he will pull thsis with worse A-hi hands.

hand2 I don't like at all. If you are going to try to get to showdown, I just call down when he donks the flop. He'll be donking lots of hands and I'd rather him keep betting worse hands than let him get away from weak ones, but once he 3bets I think you are up against mostly made hands with the occasional OESD.

Hand3..

at the turn I get that nagging "it's a big pot and he might be taking a stab at me with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]" feeling, which is almost never right often enough to take it into account.

On my best days I fold to the turn raise - there's been tons of heat thus far and he's still raising. On my better days I recognize that on the river even AK is now ahead of me and fold there.
On most days I just call and get shown A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or QK or JJ and sigh at how I knew I should have folded but didn't.

Surf

baronzeus · #4 10-04-2005, 03:43 PM

1) standard
2) fine after the flop
3) i think i might fold the river if i dont fold the turn.

Lmn55d · #5 10-04-2005, 04:42 PM

1 is standard imo. 2 I don't really like the flop raise. I'm thinking you raised to get him to fold Ax somewhere, but I dont think he folds that a lot. I'd just call down.
Hand 3 if he's very agro it's probably ok. If he's reasonably aggro it's probably a fold.

ALL1N · #6 10-04-2005, 06:15 PM

I don't like the flop raise and call down in hand 2. If you're gonna call down, just do that.

Other hands fine.

redbeard · #7 10-05-2005, 04:20 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The first hand looks okay to me. I'd fold if a heart hit, but you know whether or not he will pull thsis with worse A-hi hands.

hand2 I don't like at all. If you are going to try to get to showdown, I just call down when he donks the flop. He'll be donking lots of hands and I'd rather him keep betting worse hands than let him get away from weak ones, but once he 3bets I think you are up against mostly made hands with the occasional OESD.

Hand3..

at the turn I get that nagging "it's a big pot and he might be taking a stab at me with A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]x[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]" feeling, which is almost never right often enough to take it into account.

On my best days I fold to the turn raise - there's been tons of heat thus far and he's still raising. On my better days I recognize that on the river even AK is now ahead of me and fold there.
On most days I just call and get shown A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] or QK or JJ and sigh at how I knew I should have folded but didn't.

[/ QUOTE ]

That is perfectly stated for all three hands. I especially agree with your assessment of hand 2.