Newbie Stud Hands

[Michael Davis]

Hey rory,

Taking a small pair with an ace kicker against two other probable pairs is just fine as long as your cards are live. In fact, although it may be standard operating procedure for many to fold here, it really would be wrong to fold this hand on 3rd. I like threebetting because of the small chance you will pair on board and bet someone off of a hand that should call, and of course the very reasonable chance that you will get the pot heads up (which, to be truthful, is not as important as it seems here).

And, for obvious reasons, twodimes simulations are more useful in stud than in hold 'em, because it will usually be correct to go the river here, and when it is incorrect to chase it becomes painfully obvious by one of your opponents pairing his doorcard.

Also, in a live game, threebetting with a pair of 6s in that spot often does wonders for your image, and it confuses the hell out of your opponents who think they are playing solidly.

-Michael

[Michael Davis]

"Hand two you should reraise even if you don't think anyone will fold. Might make someone fold incorrectly later in the hand. Even if this doesn't happen you still aren't sacrificing much (if any) equity with a three-bet. Only way a raise is real bad is if someone has AA in the hole, but I wouldn't be too concerned about that. Ante structure dictates L-A play, so do it. Oh, and if VAP doesn't fold a pair of nines when you reraise you're gonna make a killing in this game."

Perfect.

-Michael

[rory]

Don't move back East-- well, you could right now and be happy. The Red Sox are doing well. The summertime stifiling humidity is gone. The next few months are the best in New England.. after the humid summer and before the freezing crappy winter. But you will regret it when baseball ends and you are shoveling out your car in the middle of January.

Anyway,

Thank you for the well-reasoned, clear response. And the nomenclature advice. In the first hand, I wound up folding my flush draw on fifth once the big pair caught another one of my hearts, but I felt like I should have folded it on fourth. It is good to see my thought processes are somewhat on the right path. The pot was so huge I couldn't find a fold on fourth.

In the second hand, what sort of probability do I need to assign to knocking out the other player before I try to do it on third? What if I can knock him out 10% of the time? Since twodimes is calling me evenish money in the hand, should I go ahead and try to knock him out even with a 10% shot? 20%? 30%? What about if I have a 6 up instead of the A? Do I just call and try to knock him out on fourth, or is that not good because the J might not be high on fourth and it could wind up that I am the one getting knocked out if the 9 catches a Q or something and bets into the J. If I am unimproved on fifth and drawing live and have a shot to raise and knock the 9 out, do I do it, even if I've caught bad the last two cards, assuming the J's board doesn't look too scary?

When I enter into this hand, should all of my energy be focused on trying to get that probable pair of 9s to fold his 9s so I can play heads up against the pair of jacks?

[rory]

Thank you for the response. Your point about maybe making someone incorrectly fold later on the hand is a good one. What if I have a 6 up instead of an A? Does that change your play on 3rd at all?

[rory]

Hi Michael,

I didn't know you read this forum too. I am curious why you said that it is not as important as it seems to get the pot heads up. According to twodimes I gain about 10% equity in the pot by getting it heads up over having it 3way. Do you mean just on third? Like, even if I don't get it heads up on third, I can get it heads up later so it is not as important to try to get it heads up on third?

How much are people thinking defensively in stud? For instance, it seems like there are some bad situations to deal with if the high card and likely 3rd street bettor is on your left. You have position but it is bad because the guy in between can knock you out by raising the likely bet from the high card. If the high card is to your right or left on third, does that change your play on third? If the high card is on your right, you have a better chance of getting a shot to raise on 4th or even 5th and knock out the other player. However if the high card is on your left, you might be the one folding the second best hand. There was not much discussion of positional considerations like this in 7CFAP.

Thanks, Michael.

[rory]

I knew I was forgetting something when I made the intial post. It takes an hour to write out 3rd street in stud. Yes, all of my cards are live in hand #2. There is one spade out but everything else is live.

[Michael Davis]

Rory,

The only reason I said that it wasn't as important to get the third hand out is because your hand is profitable in either situation. Of course it's better if he leaves, and if you can make some fancy play to knock him out at a later opportunity, by all means do so. However, it would be wrong to say that you must knock this hand out in order to continue playing the hand.

-Michael

[Andy B]

[ QUOTE ]
Don't move back East

[/ QUOTE ]

Don't worry. It's not likely to happen any time soon. I'm content to visit once or twice a year.

[ QUOTE ]
The Red Sox are doing well.

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm a Mets fan. I was a freshman at Boston University in 1986. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[ QUOTE ]
But you will regret it when baseball ends and you are shoveling out your car in the middle of January.

[/ QUOTE ]

I live in Minnesota.

On your (66)A hand, I think I'd want to have something like a 1/3 chance of knocking the third man out. I'm just pulling a number out of the air, but as others have pointed out, it isn't that crucial to get him out now, and I wouldn't mind keeping the pot on the small side in case things go south on fourth or fifth street.

You will most likely be high on board on fourth street. If you check and the Jack bets, you can raise and confront the Nine with two bets. That might be your best shot at knocking him out.