PLO8 noob -- how's my line?

Superfluous Man · #1 07-29-2005, 01:36 PM

Hey, I'm pretty much a noob when it comes to pot limit O8, but for some reason I decided to play some last night. How badly did I screw this up? Is this really standard? I can always try to explain my thoughts (though they will be very, very low-level). This is from the $50 max game on Party, so the blinds are .25/.50. At the start of the hand my stack is $55, the CO's stack is $86.

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
Folded to Hero. Hero raises the pot ($1.75). MP2 (loose guy on tilt) goes all-in for $3.50. Folded to CO (fairly solid, maybe a little weak), who calls $3.50. Folded back to hero, who calls $1.75.

From here on out, I'm just going to ignore the all-in player, because, well, he doesn't matter a whole lot to me.

Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, pot: $11.25)
Hero bets $6. CO calls $6.

I like this bet because it kind of entices the guy to stay in with a lot of things, and he's gotta be behind my nut/nut draw, right?

Turn: K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, pot: $22.10)
Hero bets $22.10. CO calls $22.10.

At this point, I'm kind of hoping he goes away, so I pot it. Perhaps I should have bet less, maybe something like $12, so I would have more flexibility on the river?

River: 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (3 players, pot: $65 or so)
Hero bets $23.40 (all-in). CO ???

Anyway, both of my draws bricked out, and I can't beat 2 pair. And, thanks to betting so much on the turn, I can't cut his odds to worse than 3.8:1. I feel like my only hope is to represent JT and make him fold something like two pair. Given that my read on him is that he's weak, I thought he could fold two small pair here. Anyone just give up and hope to check it down?

Any thoughts on this would be appreciated. Results later.

Wintermute · #2 07-29-2005, 01:57 PM

I like everything except that I would pot it on the flop--saving some chips here so you have something to bluff with on the river is sometimes a good strategy, and may have been beneficial here if your opponent missed a nut low draw as well. But in this case, your hand is so strong that I prefer potting the flop to allow you to get virtually all your chips in on the turn, when you're almost definitely ahead.

JoshuaMayes · #3 07-29-2005, 02:00 PM

I like your play up to the river, and I definitely wouldn't bet smaller on the turn. I don't think that he will fold anything (other than a busted draw) on the river that he thought was worth calling with on the turn getting 4:1. In other words, your river bet only figures to lose you money. If you check-call, villain might bluff with his busted draws.

Superfluous Man · #4 07-29-2005, 02:02 PM

Actually, in addition to representing JT, I could be representing QQ or KK, both of which make a lot more sense given that I put in lots of chips on the flop and turn. I had put that in my original post, but it must have gotten lost.

Thanks for the reply, I'll see if anyone else wants to chime in before letting the results taint everyone's opinions.

DyessMan89 · #5 07-29-2005, 02:10 PM

I think you played it well, except in 1 area ...

1) Bet a little more on the flop. Anywhere between 10 and the size of the pot.

Anyways, I actually like the river bet. It doesnt need to work often for it to be right, and there is a chance that he was chasing with A2 as well, and did not make his low.

JoshuaMayes · #6 07-29-2005, 02:19 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Anyways, I actually like the river bet. It doesnt need to work often for it to be right, and there is a chance that he was chasing with A2 as well, and did not make his low .

[/ QUOTE ]

In which case, he folds the worst hand. Getting someone to fold the worst hand on the river is not +EV, it is EV neutral (relative to check-check). If he calls your bet on the river, he will have at least two pair. But if you check, and someone with the worst hand bluffs, you have now increased your return when your pair of kings is good. If someone called the turn with two pair or a set, they believed they had the best hand, and are not folding on the river getting 4:1 in fear of JT. Accordingly, the probability of bluffing out a better hand is very small, IMO.

Superfluous Man · #7 07-29-2005, 03:02 PM

Thanks for all the replies. I don't play cash games a whole lot (my bread and butter game is NLHE sngs), which explains why I sometimes think every problem can be solved with a bet or a raise.

I thought the river was close, so I just decided to bet, hoping that he would fold something like 63. He seemed like the type who was capable of folding a weak two pair, but incapable of betting the river as a bluff. And if he were to bluff, can I really make the call with TPTK, even getting such good odds? Mostly, I was terrified of him checking behind and scooping with something like 63. Oh, and betting is more fun than checking. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

As soon as I bet, I felt a twinge of regret. I was fully expecting him to call, flip up something that had me beat, and scoop the pot. Just as I was cursing myself for making the bet, he folded. The guy to my left had some garbage that TPTK also had beat. I scoop.

The CO said "nh" afterwards, which doesn't necessarily mean anything. The table broke soon after, and I went back to my world of SNGs.

GooperMC · #8 07-29-2005, 03:42 PM

I'm with JM here, I really don't like the river bet.

My question is this: What could he be playing that
1) Will call a pot bet on the turn
2) Will not call a river bet getting very good odds
3) That you beat?

A bluff is only a bluff if you can get better hands to fold. I really don’t see that happening here.

Now lets classify your opponents hands:
1) He has you beat badly: Either way you are going to lose your stack:
2) He is unsure about his hand (ex QK): I don’t see him folding to a bet but I can see him checking the best hand behind you.
3) He is on a busted draw: I can’t see him calling a bet but I can see him trying to bluff into you with a worse hand.

For 1 it doesn’t matter if you bet or check but checking will be +EV for either 2 or 3.

I like the rest of the streets.

Ribbo · #9 07-29-2005, 07:27 PM

Pot bet the flop because you have a huge hand and are likely way ahead. Nice card hits the turn, bet the pot again. Follow through and bet what little you have left on the river, your opponent is likely on A2 also and a K will beat his random 2 other cards more often than not.