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  #1  
Old 05-20-2005, 06:40 AM
Rocco Rocco is offline
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Location: Sweden
Posts: 15
Default Playing bottom two...

Major up'n'down day... Recently lost "flopped set - turned boat" against rivered boat [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]

So... On to the actual hand. Less than one orbit so no reads. Ok, you might have comments about me playing T8s against a raise, but I know i can put anothre $8 in the pot and safely fold if i don't hit something. Any suggestions on how to play it from the flop and on?

Party Poker No-Limit Hold'em, $ BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|<font color="#C00000">saw showdown</font>

MP1 ($380.14)
MP2 ($198)
MP3 ($200)
CO ($100)
Button ($417.95)
SB ($218.4)
BB ($63.45)
UTG ($226.55)
UTG+1 ($86.1)
Hero ($298)

Preflop: Hero is UTG+2 with 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $2. SB posts a blind of $1.
<font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $2, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 raises to $10</font>, <font color="#666666">3 folds</font>, Button calls $10, <font color="#666666">2 folds</font>, Hero calls $8.

Flop: ($35) 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(3 players)</font>
Hero checks, <font color="#CC3333">MP1 bets $20</font>, Button calls $20, <font color="#CC3333">Hero raises to $70</font>, MP1 folds, Button calls $50.

Turn: ($195) J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
<font color="#CC3333">Hero bets $100</font>, Button calls $100.

River: ($395) K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] <font color="#0000FF">(2 players)</font>
Hero checks, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $395
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  #2  
Old 05-20-2005, 10:54 AM
MuckerFish MuckerFish is offline
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Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 52
Default Re: Playing bottom two...

You know the pre flop comments......
On the flop I like to bet bottom two strong, no time to slow play on a coordinated board. Show those guys you hit the board hard and price the draws out right away. If someone comes over the top depends on reads of wether or not they're tricky enough to do it with just the draw, but in most situations I'd let go of it to a raise. In this hand I woulda bet out 40 or 50 right away.
Turn I'd probably check fold given that a couple of likely draws just got there, and a good chance of your 2 pair being counterfitted by a higher 2 pair, as those late players luv them middle suited connectors (T-J and J-Q just smoked ya). If you were playing thinking a 9 on the river is giving you additional outs, they're at most to a likely split pot. Even if your 2 pair is still good, 2nd spade just made it vunerable to another possible draw on the river. Like I said, I'm check foldin here and picking a better spot. Also, depending on villian's read of you, checking might(although highly unlikely) get you a free card if villian puts you on another check raise attempt.
River card of Death, nothin to do but fold.
Main point, bet the flop.
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  #3  
Old 05-20-2005, 11:51 AM
Fistdantilus Fistdantilus is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2003
Posts: 116
Default Re: Playing bottom two...

[ QUOTE ]
Major up'n'down day...

[/ QUOTE ]

To put it gently: calling T8s for a [big] raise might influence your varience.

After thinking about it for a bit, I decided that post-flop I play it out nearly exactly how you did. On the turn I can't see him having 9X/JJ, and QQ is a chance you have to take. At this limit, far too many people take overpairs/TPTK too far and this could easily be one of those times. (However...)

I was about to suggest betting more on the turn (just to make sure a check-fold on the river is correct if he calls), and realized any more and you're nearly pushing.

I think the heart of this problem *is* the preflop action. His large raise severely restricts post-flop play due to the awkward stack sizes (you'd prefer to have $100+ more or $100+ less). The problem here is that the pot got too big, too fast with you having a marginal hand. Calculate the hand from the beginning with him making a $6 raise and the pot becomes $21 on the flop. He bets 60% of pot (~$14), you cr to $40. See how much easier it is to get away from this hand? And how much more control you have with your stack size?

Fistdantilus
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  #4  
Old 05-20-2005, 12:40 PM
Rocco Rocco is offline
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Posts: 15
Default Re: Playing bottom two...

Yep, you're right about the raise being a bit too big too call pre-flop. A few bucks less and I would've been correct to do it. I probably should've raised more, $80-$90. But in this case I doubt it would've worked. Button had KJo and his play later on gave me indications that he wouldn't have laid it down...
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  #5  
Old 05-20-2005, 01:24 PM
ckff93 ckff93 is offline
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Join Date: May 2005
Posts: 24
Default Re: Playing bottom two...

I think the lesson you have to take out of this is that if you are going to play those suited connectors, when you don't hit a monster on the flop, you're going to have a lot of thinking to do.

In this case, definately put more money in on the flop. The reason why you play NL is because you want to give your opponent bad odds to draw out on you. Don't try to build a pot with a hand as vunerable as bottom two pair.
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  #6  
Old 05-20-2005, 01:27 PM
DoomSlice DoomSlice is offline
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Posts: 582
Default Re: Playing bottom two...

Put a blocker out on the river.
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