20/40 KK Hand

[AviD]

[ QUOTE ]

I think you are giving him too much credit.


[/ QUOTE ]

This could be, he is a known regular and my second time playing with him. My inclination is that he is a solid player mentally when fresh, but as I saw this weekend he is tiltable when he gets hands cracked, he does play a little loose preflop and passive postflop.

The more I think about it, the more I hate how I played this hand and I've been pining over it since Saturday night driving home.


[ QUOTE ]
Often, players as you speak, will use such a Stop-n-Go line as they out think themselves. The usually have a A8s, or 99 (will he raise the 99 after limpers here?) and they put a player like yourself on a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]-over.


[/ QUOTE ]

I think he is too passive to raise 99 here PF, figuring it has no value given the limpers and the "odds are against him" thinker mentality.

I think when I auto 3-bet the flop before his raise even got in front of him dismisses my mere overcards in his mind. That solidified (at least I believe it would have) I wasn't trying to bully him with overcards, simply because I haven't done that to him or any of the tighter players all day/night. When I've played that aggressively postflop I've often had a very strong hand.

[ QUOTE ]

They think, bet, he's calling cause he's drawing. They pride themselves in a bet like this, they have thought themselves right into it.

[/ QUOTE ]

This very well could be, and I fear I let myself get outplayed on this hand by overthinking it myself.

[uvickid]

If villian flopped a flush i think he just calls the flop to get more money on the turn and river. being that hero has a tight table image it's likely villian put hero on a pair either preflop or on the raise on the flop. KK is probably good...am i right??

[AviD]

OK to rehash the hand...

I'm on the button in a with K [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] , 4 limpers to me including the player to my right and I raise, blinds fold out limpers call.

Flop is rag diamonds, along the lines of 3 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Checked to me, I bet, folded around to player to my right and he checkraises, I auto 3-bet and he calls.

Turn is J [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] , and player bets into me, I CALL.

River is the 9 [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and player bets into me again.

I have no diamond, and I think for about a minute, look back at my cards, look back at the player trying to get a read, finally say to him "if you are making a move, nice hand" and fold my KK face up to get a reaction.

No reaction was made, but he said as he folded (not shown) that he flopped the nut flush. I don't believe him and at that point felt I may have laid down the winner.

Folding face up getting 11:1 rather than calling 1BB for equivalent (and more) information, now seems like a really horrible play on my part.

In the heat of the moment, I had him on either a monster or mediocre hand, with the latter having the diamond draw. My plan was to call any non diamond river and raise the obvious case non-diamond King, but when the diamond hit I just didn't think my hand was best.

Being that he and I were sitting next to each other, playing for most of the day/night (he splits his sessions) and have had a friendly time, our conversation after the hand lead to his reasoning (deception in my mind) which was "I had to find out if I was against a set on the turn, that is why I bet". This further made me believe I may have laid down the winner.

LOL who knows he may read this, I wouldn't doubt he is on this board, so perhaps he'll reply sometime.

Nevertheless, I am still in the air about the river call vs fold, but I have this feeling I just got outplayed hard. But of course he could have had the flush (rivered it or otherwise), or caught a 2 outer on the river for a set of 9s. I'm still not happy with my play.

This was the main hand I had this weekend that left me confused. Usually I can recognize my good vs bad plays, where I miss bets or call when I know I'm beat. But this fold had me stumped, and I think that was the whole idea. I think he played it well, unless of course he did flop the nut flush.

[Paluka]

I used to have a weird problem with monochrome flops. I used to give too much action without having one of the suit on the flop and turn. Many times I never should have made it past the flop. But when the fourth of the suit comes, I used to play too weakly. I would fold too much, and I would not get enough value out of my mediocre flushes. I've done better since I tried to correct this problem, so I'm calling this river.

[Jeffage]

Never muck face up. You are giving away way too much info because many people wouldn't EVER fold KK on the river there and will try to bluff u later bc u showed it. If you raise the turn here, the hand plays much easier and u charge him if you're ahead.

BTW, if you think it's equally likely he will 3-bet BS as it is crap (and this sounds like some justification after the fact - no offense), the turn raise sounds even better to me.

Jeff

[mmcd]

Is he not capable of folding a mediumish diamond to a river raise? I can't tell you how many times I've had players similar to the one you described get all upset fold a hand like J [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] face up to a river raise from me in this spot.

[tpir90036]

I happened to be sitting on villain's right and AviD and I already talked about this hand over PM.... but I will post my thoughts anyway:

He either had the naked A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or he had the flush already. When he stop-and-goed the turn the first thing i thought was that he had a small flush and was charging *you* in case you had a big [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. But once he bets the river, I think it is unlikely he is trying to outplay you since for all he knows *you* had the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] or a big diamond and would payoff. So when he bets the river I think it is safe to say he got there if he wasn't there already... I find it hard to believe that he did all of this with no flush *and* hoping a 4th diamond would get there *and* that you did not have a large diamond so that he could steal it. That is way too much thinking for one hand.

(Aside: The river was actually really funny live because AviD said "jeez" but both Villain, DcifrThs and I thought he said "raise". But then he just sat there and didn't put any chips out. I think the river might have paired the board, but i don't remember exactly, but it was funny seeing everyone's reaction.)

Anyway, I still think you should raise the turn as it is unlikely that he would 3-bet the turn with just the A [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]. But I would sure feel dumb calling down if he did somehow 3-bet the turn. So am I saying raise the turn and fold to a 3-bet? I dunno. I have to think about that some more. I really wanted you to call the river on this one.... I should have offered to pay it off for you. Ha ha ha.

I guess I could have asked him about this one after you left the table but I totally forgot since I did not know you were a 2+2-er at the time and did not think I would ever hear about the hand again. My bad [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

-tpir

[tpir90036]

I understand what you are saying but do not quite see how it applies to this hand as Hero has no diamonds to speak of.

[stanky]

[ QUOTE ]
So when he bets the river I think it is safe to say he got there if he wasn't there already

[/ QUOTE ]

bingo.

Any decent player would have to put you on an overpair and in turn would not bet that river in fear that you made a higher flush, if he flopped a small flush. So you have to give him credit for the nuts, but don't fold face up anymore... I don't see how that helps you in anyway.


-Pete