Hand VS Hiatus Over (river decision for James)

Steve Giufre · #1 04-09-2005, 03:29 PM

Party Poker 15/30 Hold'em (4 handed) converter

Preflop: Hero is SB with Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img].
UTG raises, 1 fold, Hero 3-bets, 1 fold, UTG caps, Hero calls.

Flop: (9 SB) J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

Turn: (5.50 BB) 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero calls.

River: (7.50 BB) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets, Hero folds.

Final Pot: 8.50 BB

Keep in mind the game is 4 handed. What do you guys think?

stoxtrader · #2 04-09-2005, 03:47 PM

It's very very close to not having the odds to call the turn for your 6 outer if you are not going to call the river unimproved. If you spike an A or Q and get a c/r in on river then I guess it is good. I would probably call down with A high and expect to lose, but not 8 times out of 9.

ggbman · #3 04-09-2005, 05:16 PM

I think if you decide to call the turn here for a POSSIBLE 6 outer, you have to call the river. I dont think there's anything wrong with folding the turn here, and if you do decide to call it should, it should be with the idea that your hand has a little showdown value against a river bet.

Steve Giufre · #4 04-09-2005, 05:43 PM

The way the game was playing I'm not sure I can fold on the turn. I'm almost getting the right price, and at that point there is certainly a chance my hand is good. We were raising and reraising each other with a pretty wide range of hands, so I wasnt conviced yet that folding was right. From what I knew about his play up until that point, he would definetly bet any hand he would cap with again on the turn, but it seems like he would check the river with all hands I beat.

The problem is, he knows I expect him to check on the end and give up on his bluffs once I call the turn. So is it a safe spot to laydown for one bet on the end agaist an opponent who is capable of thinking on a lot of levels? The point I was trying to get make with this hand is that not only do you have to call the worst players on the river in these spots, you have to call the best players too. Hiatus knew I thought it looked like a hopeless spot for him to bet the river, and he has also probably narrowed down my holding pretty well since I havent a made a move anywhere in the hand.

James282 · #5 04-09-2005, 06:38 PM

[ QUOTE ]
The way the game was playing I'm not sure I can fold on the turn. I'm almost getting the right price, and at that point there is certainly a chance my hand is good. We were raising and reraising each other with a pretty wide range of hands, so I wasnt conviced yet that folding was right. From what I knew about his play up until that point, he would definetly bet any hand he would cap with again on the turn, but it seems like he would check the river with all hands I beat.

The problem is, he knows I expect him to check on the end and give up on his bluffs once I call the turn. So is it a safe spot to laydown for one bet on the end agaist an opponent who is capable of thinking on a lot of levels? The point I was trying to get make with this hand is that not only do you have to call the worst players on the river in these spots, you have to call the best players too. Hiatus knew I thought it looked like a hopeless spot for him to bet the river, and he has also probably narrowed down my holding pretty well since I havent a made a move anywhere in the hand.

[/ QUOTE ]

If he is capable of capping you with less than AQ, of course you have to call down. The dynamic I described is mostly useful in full games where less posturing(your raising and reraising liberally) is going on. And yes, against the very best players you have to call down if they consider you good enough to make those tough folds on the end. But even the very best players aren't willing to give that sort of credit to other players until they realize they are capable of making those folds...which generally takes a lot of playing together and a lot of hands that go to the river(exactly what happens in shorthanded games). The play I describe is more of the "default," whereas most people make it the exception.
-James

Steve Giufre · #6 04-09-2005, 06:52 PM

Yeah I agree the fact that this was a 4 handed game changes a lot. I really made a mess out of this one. That being said, if we know he might cap with less than AQ, is there a better line than simply calling down? Do you think check rasing the flop would be better? I defintely beat some of his combinations but not a ton. Maybe I got too deep into this hand.

James282 · #7 04-09-2005, 06:55 PM

I think making a play at the turn would have been good if it were a reasonable card with which to do so. It was a huge blank, so unless he's been getting really out of line I'd fold the turn.
-James

AceHigh · #8 04-09-2005, 08:48 PM

[ QUOTE ]
is there a better line than simply calling down?

[/ QUOTE ]

How about check/call, check/call, bet?

James282 · #9 04-09-2005, 08:51 PM

You're getting raised by like almost any 2 if you check-call check-call bet. What are you trying to represent?
-James

J_V · #10 04-09-2005, 09:04 PM

I think Hiatus is very big here. I'd say he has AA AKs KK QQ. JJ and 10-10 are possible but less likely. After the river bet, I'd take AKs out of the equation. His cap preflop means a lot.

I am very sure you should fold the turn. You are very likely to only have three outs.