Faith Not "Enough" in Chritianity?

[David Sklansky]

I have a feeling that critics of Christianity, including myself, as well as members of some other religions, and athiests, sometimes make a statement (regarding what it takes to be "saved") that they kind of figure is obviously exaggerated. Christians, however often assume that there is no exaggeration in those statements.

Speaking only for myself (but thinking that most Christian critcs would agree with me) my actual understanding is this:

The Christian god wants two things from humans. That they be good and that they believe in him. If they do, they are "saved". There seems to be some difference of opinion among Christians if the "being good" part should be considered only a indication that you believe, or is in fact relevant in and of itself. But it doesn't matter for the purposes of this discussion. Because all Christians seem to believe that beleiving in Jesus while SIMULTANEOUSLY doing bad things or PLANNING to do bad things is AUTOMATIC evidence that you don't believe. (What I am not sure about is the case where the capitalized word is changed to EXPECTING.)

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.

A less dramatic example is the fellow who attends Church, does all the necessary preliminaries, truly believes that Jesus exists, and is planning to get the last rites and repent before he dies. But he is also planning to have way more fun than he should before that happens. Most non-Christians, again assume this guy will run into a problem according to Chritianity.

Now even if all the above is correct, there are still a lot of things about the way Chritianity overemphasizes faith that I, and others don't like. But it isn't as extreme as our statements sometimes appear. That subject is for another time.

For now I would just like to know if I accurately described the Christian position and also if I have accurately described the way most non Chritians think of Christianity as regards to this subject.

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So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.


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"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think many christians(esp evangelical and fund) think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.

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[ QUOTE ]

So when critics say that a Christian can be a scoundrel and still go to heaven if they have the right faith, I think most of them realize that the scoundrel has to have changed his ways before his proclamation of belief holds any water. I'm guessing that if he just had been shot after molesting a child, and using her as a shield against police he was firing at, and now professes his new found faith and his desire to be good ten seconds before he dies, he has a problem as far as Chritian belief goes. And that most non Christians have the same opinion about Christian belief in this case.


[/ QUOTE ]

"proclamation of beliefs", and "professes new found faith".
the truth of these proclamtions and profesations(which only God can know) is going to be the determining factor for christians. if the child molester actually finds faith rather than merely professing it in his last seconds i think most christians think he will be ok and will not be punished for having the misfortune to die seconds after this conversion of the heart.

[/ QUOTE ]

I tend to agree with this. My Christian upbringing taught me that proclaiming your faith isn't enough- you must truly believe it, and only God can make that determination.

[vulturesrow]

David,

I think that is a pretty good summation. Christians of all stripes recognized that just saying "I believe" and truly believing are two separate things. The bottom line is that God can see what is in our hearts and he is the ultimate judge. This is why I find my Church's teaching (the Roman Catholic Church) to be the most reasonable on this subject. To claim to absolutely know the mind of an omniscient God is the height of arrogance in my opinion. Theologians try to make their best intepretation based on the signs which God has given us. But many things are are not easily figured out.

[RJT]

There are so many variations of Christianity, that it is hard to say yes or no whether you got it pretty much right. But, for the sake of discussion, it certainly won’t hurt to say you got it pretty much right. (One reason this is way more difficult to discuss specifically is because ( if I understand what you are asking correctly) this is one of the big differences in Catholicism and some Protestants, i.e. "Justification by Faith".)

I will take a stab at your basic point though; because what you are describing is basically someone like me. Not literally, but in general. Your poll a while back about the degree of trauma to a Christian if he found out Jesus was not God was a very good litmus test. I failed. I should be totally devastated if that were to happen. Maybe I in reality would, but I imagine I probably wouldn’t.

Therefore, although I think Christianity to be true, I in truth probably really don’t have much faith. Although, my intellect (ironically) says yes, my heart has not truly been touched in the manner PairtheBoard talks about.

So, to answer your question, I don’t know what will become of folk like me.

I do find it hard to imagine that if God exists he is not unlike women. I have yet to meet a woman who eventually does not want to get married. They all start out saying not so. But, stay with one long enough and tell me she is still cool with no ring. God probably wants us to make a commitment.


Your point about over emphasizing faith is curious to me. I can see not wanting to taking a stance, I guess. I can easily see deciding against Christianity. But, once one decides on Christianity, it is hard to understand how faith can be overemphasized. Even more so, why one would not want to think it highly important. It is a good thing to the believer.

[coolhandluke]

David, an interesting question,

However, this is one of the core debated areas in Christian theology, and there is NO way to sum all the views into one. there are at least 4 camps that would have to be examined (that I know of, There are some especially orthodox, that I am not familiar enough with to knowledgeably comment on)

The four camps that would have to be examined are:

1. Catholic, (roman, and any of the various branches in full communion with the Roman church)

2. Magesterial Protestantism (Lutheran)

3. Reformed Protestantism (Calvin)

4. Evangelical Protestantism (Baptist, and a whole host of others)

each is a seperate discussion really. I don't know if you care for that much detail, but if you do, I'd be happy to talk about them, is there any one you'd like to look at first?

[lehighguy]

Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

[coolhandluke]

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Furthermore, to my knowledge the only sin unforgivable is suicide, since you can't possibly repent since its your last action on earth.

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Again, totally dependent on which branch of christianity were talking about.

And, after thinking about it briefly, the original question is only really valid in 2 of the 4 areas I mentioned.

[David Sklansky]

"each is a seperate discussion really. I don't know if you care for that much detail, but if you do, I'd be happy to talk about them, is there any one you'd like to look at first?"

Actually I would love to hear the details of the differences. But it is only fair to tell you that the reason has nothing to do with an interest in religion per se. I'm really only interested in the different axioms people come up with, what we can learn about people depending on their axioms, and whether they properly derive theorems from those axioms. Given that, you may not want to go to the trouble.

[warlockjd]

My perspective is a bit different than most. I was raised in a cult/sect faith healing environment for my first 15 years. Now atheist or agnostic depending on my mood. But here's the rather weird cultish perspective that I was taught.

It's either heaven or hell, no purgatory, and the choice is eternal. To not go to hell:

1. Must believe Jesus is son of God

2. Must repent sins to him.

3. Can't sin then die without repenting said sin.

4. For some reason, Jewish people have an out since they are God's chosen people. If they die without doing 1-3, when Jesus returns, they rise up from the dead and he gives them the option to change their minds on 1-3 and go to heaven.

5. My logical conclusion, was that God would have some threshhold for the constant 'sin then repent, then repeat same sin' people. If they did it too much, it was BS and still hell for them.

6. If you blaspheme the Holy Spirit, all bets are off and you cannot go to Heaven no matter what (just the Holy Spirit (not God the Father or Son-Jesus)

7. If you take the Mark of the Beast (Antichrist) all bets are off and it's hell for you.

With these doctrines, if one is struggling with faith/etc, one can simply blashpeme the Holy Ghost, and never worry about it again.

I'm pretty sure these rules are stricter than anything mainstream. It was very weird when I started spotting logical inconsistencies in my indoctrination around 3rd grade.