Quick Basic ?'s on a few PL hands

jhall23 · #1 10-05-2005, 12:37 PM

Been playing a lot of Omaha Hi over the past few months and now want to get some Omaha/8 under my belt so I have been playing around some in the Kiddie pool. Not much experience with Omaha/8 yet, but I have skimmed some stuff on this board, checked out a few web sites and have read Ciaffones very small section on it in his Omaha book.

These are simple I am sure just want some conformation.

Hand 1:

When it get's back to me stacks are too short to simply call correct? Better to just take the equity edge I have here and push based on the dead money? UTG was very loose and I would not be suprised for him to call me here (as he did).

Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.25 BB (9 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

MP3 ($14.40)
Hero ($21.87)
Button ($23.40)
SB ($66.91)
BB ($42.64)
UTG ($24.05)
UTG+1 ($21.44)
MP1 ($16.53)
MP2 ($9.73)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 1 fold, MP2 calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero raises to $1, Button calls $1, 2 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.75, MP2 raises to $5.35, Hero raises to $18.4, Button folds, UTG+1 raises to $21.44 (All-In), MP2 calls $4.38 (All-In), Hero calls $3.04.

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Hands 2 + 3:

I've been experimenting with Pre-flop and don't really mind testing out hands to see if they play well at all post flop. I imagine these 2 hands might need to hit the muck PF. Can you tell I play Hi?

Hand 2:

I don't have the emailed HH so I can't convert.

I have about 24 and pick up K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] and limp UTG+1 after 1 limper. 6 to the flop

Flop (1.45) - K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I pot it and get two callers.

Turn (5.6) - 2[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]

I pot it, MP raises all in (same stack as me) 3rd player folds and I call.

I'm fine with this one Post flop but let me know if it is no good.

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Hand 3:

Party Poker Pot-Limit Omaha/8, $0.25 BB (10 handed) converter

saw flop|saw showdown

UTG+1 ($22.10)
UTG+2 ($18.37)
MP1 ($9.06)
Hero ($39.82)
MP3 ($18.17)
CO ($25)
Button ($4.97)
SB ($29.25)
BB ($15.30)
UTG ($32.97)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]. CO posts a blind of $0.25.
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.25, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold, CO (poster) checks, 1 fold, SB completes, BB checks.

Flop: ($1.25) Q[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (5 players)
SB checks, BB checks, UTG+1 bets $0.3, Hero raises to $2.1, CO folds, SB folds, BB folds, UTG+1 calls $1.80.

Turn: ($5.45) 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $5.2, UTG+1 raises to $10.4, Hero folds.

Final Pot: $21.05

As mentioned I think pre-flop might be a muck. Not sure on the turn here, but the check-min raise probably means he's got it since people are really likely to have Aces and are generally passive at these stakes correct? Any chance people at this level semi-bluff with the naked Ad with a low draw?

Wintermute · #2 10-05-2005, 01:59 PM

All these hands look OK to me. Hand 1, perfect. Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run. Hand 3, a little loose preflop, and you saw why postflop. But I don't automatically muck that hand (although in a full ring game, I rarely play it). Also on Hand 3 you might check behind on the turn.

jhall23 · #3 10-05-2005, 03:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
All these hands look OK to me. Hand 1, perfect. Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run. Hand 3, a little loose preflop, and you saw why postflop. But I don't automatically muck that hand (although in a full ring game, I rarely play it). Also on Hand 3 you might check behind on the turn.

[/ QUOTE ]

Cool thanks.

In regards to hand 3, I did contemplate checking behind here but opted to follow up my flop aggression and charge a potential low draw they might have picked up.

If I checked instead I would call (or bet if checked to) on the river on any non low board. Can I call/bet if a low hit's, I suppose it's opponent specific but assume a typical player at the 25-100 levels?

Wintermute · #4 10-05-2005, 03:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Can I call/bet if a low hit's, I suppose it's opponent specific but assume a typical player at the 25-100 levels?

[/ QUOTE ]
I would say yes to a call, maybe to a bet, against a general opponent. The decision on whether to bet comes down to how often will opponent fold a weak low vs. how often he'll checkraise w/ nuts.

DyessMan89 · #5 10-05-2005, 08:17 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

jhall23 · #6 10-05-2005, 08:32 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

DyessMan89 · #7 10-05-2005, 09:53 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

A favorable flop? What would that be? The only good outs for high you have is to make trip K's, bascially, and often times that hand will be extremley vunerable. (not to mention you might only take 1/2 if a low is present) A typical "favorable" board for KKQ6 would be ...

K63 (63 suited, not your suit)

Now, you have no possiblity for low, and you have to dodge flush cards and straight cards in the process. Notice how A24T is ahead of you in this situation ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262584
pokenum -o8 kh kc qd 6s - as 2c 4c ts -- kd 6c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6c 3c Kd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Kc Qd Kh 148 510 310 0 0 0 0 0.401
As Ts 4c 2c 310 310 510 0 630 0 0 0.599

Having a hand without a low like KKQ6 is not not good, ESPECIALLY FROM EARLY POSITION. It might be worth a limp in LP or the blinds. Please stick to Omaha High.

donger · #8 10-06-2005, 01:18 AM

Those preflop equity calculations don't mean much in a dispute over actual EV. I agree that KKxx is profitable in PLO8.

Stranded big pairs DO suck in limit O8, though, for all the reasons you've cited.

Cooker · #9 10-06-2005, 10:42 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well obviously KKxx isn't going to be a favorite against many hands in this game, but if we get in for a limp we aren't continuing on that many flops. Our EV comes when we catch a favorable flop. A two times calculation is a little misleading cause we are not trying to get all-in pre-flop and see all 5 cards, no?

[/ QUOTE ]

A favorable flop? What would that be? The only good outs for high you have is to make trip K's, bascially, and often times that hand will be extremley vunerable. (not to mention you might only take 1/2 if a low is present) A typical "favorable" board for KKQ6 would be ...

K63 (63 suited, not your suit)

Now, you have no possiblity for low, and you have to dodge flush cards and straight cards in the process. Notice how A24T is ahead of you in this situation ...

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262584
pokenum -o8 kh kc qd 6s - as 2c 4c ts -- kd 6c 3c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 820 enumerated boards containing 6c 3c Kd
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
6s Kc Qd Kh 148 510 310 0 0 0 0 0.401
As Ts 4c 2c 310 310 510 0 630 0 0 0.599

Having a hand without a low like KKQ6 is not not good, ESPECIALLY FROM EARLY POSITION. It might be worth a limp in LP or the blinds. Please stick to Omaha High.

[/ QUOTE ]

It is thinking like this that makes the PLO8 so juicy for Wintermute and Ribbo. K63 with a flush draw is one of the worst flops where you would play on with your Kings, but you give it as a typical "favorable" flop. And even against a hand that hits this flop pretty hard (no reason to expect someone to have a hand with a low draw, flush draw, and straight draw every time you see this flop) you are still only a 3 to 2 dog on the flop and will become a nice favorite on a blank turn where you can push really hard. You are supporting your claim that not playing KKxx is no good by cooking the stats.

gergery · #10 10-07-2005, 01:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hand 2, playing any KKxx for a limp PF is going to be +EV in the long run.

[/ QUOTE ]

Any KKxx?

http://twodimes.net/h/?z=1262441
pokenum -mc 500000 -o8 ks kc 8d 9h - 6s 4s 7c 5c
Omaha Hi/Low 8-or-better: 500000 sampled boards
cards scoop HIwin HIlos HItie LOwin LOlos LOtie EV
Ks Kc 8d 9h 155994 265043 234741 216 0 0 0 0.421
6s 4s 7c 5c 234741 234741 265043 216 291120 0 0 0.579

Hmmm, something doesnt seem right.

[/ QUOTE ]

What isn't right is that you are confusing twodimes equity with how the hands will play out in a real game.

In a real game 4567 will never be the nuts. so the times it actually is ahead it will not make much money and the times it's behind it will lose money.

whereas KK can pot the flop and generally have a good idea of where it is on the turn.

This is actually a classic example of why twodimes is a valuable learning tool but not to be used as a decision God.

I agree with Cooker and 'mute.
-g