Limitation of PT stats

[dtbog]

Obviously we shouldn't just be relying on PT stats as we play -- specific player-based reads are very important too.

Consider three players:

(1) One will limp EVERY pot that has not been raised before him, and complete every SB in an unraised pot. However, he will only call a raise with a premium hand (top 10%).

(2) One will see the flop with his top 50% of hands, no matter what. Raise and a reraise? He coldcalls. Raise from tight UTG? He calls. You get the drift.

(3) The third is an average fish with a VPIP of 50%.. he's not a good player, but he does have capacity for some level of reasoning. He will fold a hand like Q9s to a raise and a reraise. He will fold a hand like K3s, which he probably would have limped with in early position if no one had raised, to an early-position raise. Things like that.

Consider how much more useful VPIP/PFR numbers are with a context.

Quick, easy example:

You raise with AA. 60% VPIP villain calls. (see the hand dirtdog55 posted today.)

Yes, he voluntarily puts money in the pot 60% of the time -- but see villain 1 above. He will only actually see the flop to a raise with the top 10% of starting hands.

Wouldn't this information be very useful when the flop comes 997?

[djoyce003]

these are when hand specific notes are critical.

"calls raises with suited trash" eliminates one of the villains that you had.

also against real loose passive fish i'll usually have a note "if this guy checkraises you can pretty much fold everything but the nuts"

On hands like the one mentioned i'd take notes on both players...calls raises with suited trash, flat called flopped trips, made a very large turn raise.

On hero on the same hand mentioned "can't fold aces"

If someone will make pot sized turn raises with TPTK i'll make a note, if they'll do it with TP no kicker i'll make a note. You can't always have these notes in just a few hands but if you have enough hands to get a meaningful PT read on their stats you oughta have something you can use here.

Set farmer is another note I commonly put on people.

[Kyriefurro]

I so agree. I like to make notes of specific plays that villain will make that either stick out or else that really help to define his playing style. For some reason having the specific hand in my notes helps me remember much more clearly than a general "set farmer" note, although there have been some exceptions.

I have one donater with the note "NOT a good set-farmer." His stats are the type that usually induce caution (30/3/5 or thereabouts), but the guy is one of the stupidest players I've ever seen. My best guess is that he's got his own type of player classification: scared-clueless [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img].

[beavens]

i've been trying to improve on my note-taking. went from making a few, to trying to make some for everyone i play against.

it helps a lot when combined with the PT stats.

[ QUOTE ]
On hero on the same hand mentioned "can't fold aces"

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking false notes can get you into trouble [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Seriously though, when I first notice someone doing something that looks out of line, I will make a note, but I will put a few question marks behind it to let myself know that this is still speculation (ie. "loves to bluff???") Once I see him do the same thing again, I remove the question marks. This lets me know how much I can rely on each note. Good post dt BTW

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On hero on the same hand mentioned "can't fold aces"

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking false notes can get you into trouble [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Seriously though, when I first notice someone doing something that looks out of line, I will make a note, but I will put a few question marks behind it to let myself know that this is still speculation (ie. "loves to bluff???") Once I see him do the same thing again, I remove the question marks. This lets me know how much I can rely on each note. Good post dt BTW

[/ QUOTE ]

i saw this in a different post by you. i think i might try it out - how has it worked for you?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On hero on the same hand mentioned "can't fold aces"

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking false notes can get you into trouble [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Seriously though, when I first notice someone doing something that looks out of line, I will make a note, but I will put a few question marks behind it to let myself know that this is still speculation (ie. "loves to bluff???") Once I see him do the same thing again, I remove the question marks. This lets me know how much I can rely on each note. Good post dt BTW

[/ QUOTE ]

i saw this in a different post by you. i think i might try it out - how has it worked for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question mark idea seems to work well. My note taking skills need work though.

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
On hero on the same hand mentioned "can't fold aces"

[/ QUOTE ]

Taking false notes can get you into trouble [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img] Seriously though, when I first notice someone doing something that looks out of line, I will make a note, but I will put a few question marks behind it to let myself know that this is still speculation (ie. "loves to bluff???") Once I see him do the same thing again, I remove the question marks. This lets me know how much I can rely on each note. Good post dt BTW

[/ QUOTE ]

i saw this in a different post by you. i think i might try it out - how has it worked for you?

[/ QUOTE ]

The question mark idea seems to work well. My note taking skills need work though.

[/ QUOTE ]

i envy the players who have the dedication to take proper notes on their opponents.. i am just lazy

[dtbog]

[ QUOTE ]
i envy the players who have the dedication to take proper notes on their opponents.. i am just lazy

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be lazy like this too, but I've started taking as many notes as I can. It's been very helpful.

Silly example: you see a guy who min-raises every time he opens a pot... and then the one time he makes a 4xBB raise, he has aces. "Huh," you think to yourself as you are playing, "there's a pattern!"

If you don't write it down, you're not necessarily going to remember his screen name next time... and say he opens for 4xBB on the first hand you play against him. Sure, he might not always play this way... and 4xBB might just mean "top 5%", and not "aces"... but even something to jog your memory here will help you play this hand much more optimally.

[beavens]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i envy the players who have the dedication to take proper notes on their opponents.. i am just lazy

[/ QUOTE ]

I used to be lazy like this too, but I've started taking as many notes as I can. It's been very helpful.

Silly example: you see a guy who min-raises every time he opens a pot... and then the one time he makes a 4xBB raise, he has aces. "Huh," you think to yourself as you are playing, "there's a pattern!"

If you don't write it down, you're not necessarily going to remember his screen name next time... and say he opens for 4xBB on the first hand you play against him. Sure, he might not always play this way... and 4xBB might just mean "top 5%", and not "aces"... but even something to jog your memory here will help you play this hand much more optimally.

[/ QUOTE ]

yes, observations like this paired with PT stats can be very powerful.

quick question sortve OT: when someone changes their screenname, you lose all notes and stats for them right?

i mean, they will still be there, but theyre pretty pointless unless they sign on with that name again, right?